Episode 221: Your own personal necromancer, with Josh Wiest

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Joshua Wiest is an instructor at Forge Fencing in Durham, North Carolina, focusing on the fighting systems of masters Achilles Marozzo, Giovanni dall’Aggochie, Antonio Manciolino, and Camillo Palladini. He’s also a successful tournament fencer, and host of the historical martial arts podcast L’Arte dell’Armi.

You may remember Josh from episode 90 of this podcast, “A Whole Lot of Tasty Bolognese, with Josh Wiest”. We’re delighted to have Josh back on the show to continue the discussion of Bolognese fencing, specifically, was there a Bolognese tradition? How can we be certain, and is this the correct name for it?

In this in-depth conversation we cover the historical context of Bologna in the 15^th Century, the important families and their influence on the fencing tradition. This includes the significance of necromancy, chivalric academies, English kings, a pirate Pope, the sack of Rome, political intrigue, feuds and much more besides!

Continue reading Josh’s excellent work using the links below:

Dardi Article: 

https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/dardi-deeds-done-dirt-cheap-part?r=1e0ent

 

Order of Santo Stefano: 

https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/the-order-of-san-stefano

Hall where Giganti taught fencing in Pisa:

 DnD castle rescue: 

Part 1: https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/the-great-escape-part-1?r=1e0ent

Part 2: https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/the-great-escape-part-2?r=1e0ent

Part 3: https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/the-great-escape-part-3?r=1e0ent

 

Necromancy in Bologna: 

https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/the-dark-arts-of-bologna?r=1e0ent

 

il Casino and Knights of Viola: 

https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/the-knights-of-viola?r=1e0ent

 

Accademia of Bologna: 

https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/the-chivalric-academies-of-bologna?r=1e0ent

 

Link to Relationship map:

Web version here:

https://app.milanote.com/1VAHxQ1c9mr70n/bolognese-fencing-web?p=ybqLApBV0Qo

 

Viggiani: Soldier and Philosopher 

https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/the-soldier-and-the-philosopher?r=1e0ent

 

Marozzo's Razor: 

https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/marozzos-razor?r=1e0ent

 

Bolognese Weapons Regulations: 

https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/bolognese-weapons-regulations-1250?r=1e0ent

 

Lelio Tedeschi: 

https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/the-secrets-of-lelio-tedeschi?r=1e0ent

 

Quest for Manciolino:

Intro: https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/the-quest-for-manciolino?r=1e0ent

 

Printers Part 1: https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/the-quest-for-manciolino-99f?r=1e0ent

Printers Part 2: https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/the-quest-for-manciolino-printers?r=1e0ent

Printers Part 3: https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/the-quest-for-manciolino-printers-2c4?r=1e0ent

Printers Conclusion: https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/quest-for-manciolino-printers-conclusion?r=1e0ent

 

Marozzo and his Students: 

https://theartofarms.substack.com/p/achille-marozzo-uncovered?r=1e0ent

 

Targone:

 

Episode Summary

Josh Wiest's Background and Introduction

• Guy Windsor introduces Josh Wiest, highlighting his role as an instructor at the Forge Fencing School and his podcast, The Art of Arms.
• Josh thanks Guy for having him and expresses his excitement about the discussion.
• Guy sets the stage for a contentious question about the Bolognese fencing tradition, referencing an article by Rob Runckers.
• Joshua begins to present his thesis on the Bolognese fencing tradition, acknowledging the complexity of the topic.

Historical Context of Bologna in the 15th Century

• Josh explains the historical context of Bologna in the early 15th century, including its transition from a republic to a Visconti-controlled city.
• He discusses the role of the Bentivoglio family in Bologna's political landscape and their rise to power.
• The Visconti family's influence and the subsequent return of the Bentivoglio family to power are detailed.
• Josh highlights the importance of the Bentivoglio family in facilitating the Bolognese fencing tradition.

The Role of the Bentivoglio Family in Bolognese Fencing

• Josh elaborates on the Bentivoglio family's role in the Bolognese fencing tradition, emphasizing their influence and power.
• He discusses the historical events that shaped the Bolognese fencing tradition, including the Visconti's influence and the Bentivoglio family's response.
• The significance of the Bentivoglio family in maintaining and promoting the fencing tradition is emphasized.
• Josh mentions the involvement of other notable figures, such as Lancelotto Beccaria de Pavia and Guido Manciolino, in the Bolognese fencing tradition.

The Visconti-Bentivoglio Conflict and Its Impact

• Josh describes the conflict between the Visconti and the Bentivoglio families, including the Visconti's offer to Giovanni Bentivoglio to choose between them and Florence.
• The Florentines' involvement in the conflict and their half-support of their allies are discussed.
• The betrayal of Giovanni Bentivoglio by Pietro del Colti, a Florentine diplomat, is highlighted.
• The turbulent period following Giovanni Bentivoglio's death and the subsequent political struggles in Bologna are detailed.

The Role of Nani Gozzadini and Niccolo III d'Este

• Josh discusses the role of Nani Gozzadini in the political struggles in Bologna, including his betrayal by Baldassare Cossa.
• The involvement of Niccolo III d'Este, a close friend of Nani Gozzadini, in the political conflicts is detailed.
• The significance of the Bentivoglio family's alliance with Niccolo III D'Este in maintaining their power is emphasized.
• The impact of these political alliances on the Bolognese fencing tradition is discussed.

The Introduction of Filippo Dardi and His Letter

• Josh introduces Filippo Dardi and his letter to the Otto dell'Avere, detailing the conditions for teaching fencing in Bologna.
• The letter's contents, including the rates Dardi charged and the theoretical and practical training times, are discussed.
• The significance of Dardi's agreement with a powerful citizen in the Bentivoglio regime is highlighted.
• The implications of Dardi's letter for understanding the Bolognese fencing tradition are explored.

The Continuation of the Bolognese Fencing Tradition

• Josh discusses the continuation of the Bolognese fencing tradition through the Bentivoglio family, emphasizing the importance of the family's patronage.
• The involvement of notable figures, such as Guido Rangoni and Antonio di Luca, in the Bolognese fencing tradition is detailed.
• The significance of the Bentivoglio family's support in maintaining and promoting the fencing tradition is emphasized.
• The impact of the Bentivoglio family's political alliances on the fencing tradition is discussed.

The Role of Giovanni Filoteo Achillini and the Viola Gardens

• Josh discusses the role of Giovanni Filoteo Achillini in the Bolognese fencing tradition, including his establishment of the Viola Gardens academy.
• The significance of the Viola Gardens in the development of the Bolognese fencing tradition is highlighted.
• The involvement of notable figures, such as Ludovico Boccadiferro, in the academy is detailed.
• The impact of the academy on the Bolognese fencing tradition is discussed.

The Influence of Necromancy on the Bolognese Fencing Tradition

• Josh discusses the influence of necromancy on the Bolognese fencing tradition, including the involvement of the Bentivoglio family.
• The significance of necromancy in Bolognese culture and its impact on the fencing tradition is highlighted.
• The role of notable figures, such as Gentile Budrioli, in the practice of necromancy is detailed.
• The implications of necromancy on the Bolognese fencing tradition are explored.

The Connection Between Dardi and De Luca

• Josh discusses the connection between Filippo Dardi and Antonio di Luca, emphasizing the importance of this link in understanding the Bolognese fencing tradition.
• The significance of Dardi's agreement with a powerful citizen in the Bentivoglio regime in facilitating this connection is highlighted.
• The implications of this connection for understanding the continuation of the Bolognese fencing tradition are explored.
• The challenges in proving this connection beyond reasonable doubt are discussed.

Historical Context of Viggiani's Characters

• Guy and Josh discuss the naming system in Viggiani's work and its accuracy.
• Josh explains the concept of potentiality in Viggiani's text and introduces the characters: Rodomonte, Conti de Monti, and Ludovico Boccadiferro.
• Guy and Josh clarify the historical context of these characters, including their roles and relationships.
• Josh details the connections between these characters, such as Luigi Rodomonte Gonzaga's friendship with Baldassare Castiglione and his influence at the imperial court.

Luigi Rodomonte Gonzaga and His Influence

• Josh elaborates on Luigi Rodomonte Gonzaga's relationship with Charles V and Henry VIII, highlighting his hunting skills and the significance of receiving an embrace from a king.
• The conversation shifts to Don Luis Fernandez de Cordoba, the patron of Manciolino, and his role in the court of Charles V.
• Josh discusses the political intrigues involving Don Luis Fernandez de Cordoba and his wife Eleanor, including the construction of a mausoleum by Michelangelo.
• The narrative touches on the sack of Rome and the involvement of Luigi Rodomonte Gonzaga and other characters in the political dynamics of the time.

Manciolino's Treatise and Its Dedication

• Josh explains Manciolino's attempt to publish his treatise in 1519 and his eventual dedication to Don Luis Fernandez de Cordoba in 1523.
• The conversation explores the potential ecclesiastical connections of Manciolino and his treatise, including the mention of Antonio Manciolini in Bologna.
• Josh discusses the complex love story of Don Luis Fernandez de Cordoba and his wife Eleanor, including the construction of a mausoleum by Michelangelo.
• The narrative shifts to the political intrigues involving the Colonna family and the falling out of Ludovico Bocadofero with the University of Bologna.

Bolognese Tradition and Viggiani's Influence

• Guy and Josh discuss the concept of a Bolognese tradition in martial arts, comparing it to the Okinawan karate tradition.
• Josh explains the Aristotelian and Occam's razor influences in Viggiani's work and its connection to the Bentivoglio mentality.
• The conversation touches on the connections between Viggiani's characters and the historical figures they represent, such as the Gonzaga family.
• Josh introduces the concept of the chivalric academies of Bologna and their role in revitalizing the martial tradition after the Italian wars.

Chivalric Academies and Their Influence

• Josh discusses the emergence of chivalric academies in Bologna, such as the Cavaliere Desti and the Cavaliere della Viola, and their connections to the Bentivo-lesci family.
• The conversation explores the role of the Malvezzi, Campeggi, and Legnani families in these academies and their historical significance.
• Josh explains the continuation of the Bentivo-lesci tradition through the publication of treatises by Marozzo, Manciolino, and Achillini.
• The narrative shifts to the influence of the printing press and the availability of paper on the publication of martial arts treatises in the 16th century.

Giovanni dall’Agocchie and His Connections

• Josh discusses Giovanni dall’Agocchie’s patron, Fabio Papoli, and the connections between the Pepoli and Rangoni families.
• The conversation explores the potential relationship between Giovanni dall’Agocchie and Marozzo, based on the location of dall’Agocchie's dialog at the Martinengo family's Palazzo.
• Josh explains the historical context of the Martinengo family and their connections to the Bentavoleski tradition.
• The narrative shifts to the broader connections between the various fencing masters and their influence on the development of the Bolognese tradition.

The Marcelli Tradition and Its Influence

• Josh discusses the Marcelli tradition and its influence on the Bolognese fencing tradition, including the continuation of the Marcelli family's teachings.
• The conversation explores the connections between the Marhelli family and other fencing masters, such as Palladini and Camillo Paternostro.
• Josh explains the influence of Agrippa's fencing style on the Marcelli tradition and the modifications made by Palladini to make it more martial.
• The narrative shifts to the historical context of the Marcelli family's teachings and their impact on the development of the Bolognese fencing tradition.

Senesi and the Bolognese Fencing Tradition

• Josh discusses the influence of Senesi on the Bolognese fencing tradition, including his publication of "Il Vero Maneggio della Spada" in 1660.
• The conversation explores the connections between Senesi and the Marchelli tradition, including the influence of Obizzo Annibale Marescalchi and Camillo Sacchi.
• Josh explains the characteristics of Senesi's fencing style, such as the emphasis on defending with the arm extended, and its connection to the Bolognese tradition.
• The narrative shifts to the broader influence of Senesi on the development of the Bolognese fencing tradition and his role as a fencing master in Bologna.

The Order of Santo Stefano and Its Fencing Tradition

• Josh discusses the Order of Santo Stefano and its role in the development of the Bolognese fencing tradition, including the publication of Giganti's second book.
• The conversation explores the historical context of the Order of Santo Stefano and its fencing hall in Pisa, which was used for martial training.
• Josh explains the connections between the Order of Santo Stefano and other fencing masters, such as Giganti and his influence on the development of the Bolognese fencing tradition.
• The narrative shifts to the broader influence of the Order of Santo Stefano on the development of the Bolognese fencing tradition and its role in the martial training of its members.

The Bolognese School and Its Continuation

• Josh discusses the continuation of the Bolognese fencing tradition through the Scuola Magistrale and its connection to the Marchelli tradition.
• The conversation explores the historical context of the Scuola Magistrale and its claim to the lineage of the Marchelli tradition.
• Josh explains the influence of the Bolognese fencing tradition on the development of the Scuola Magistrale and its role in the martial training of its members.
• The narrative shifts to the broader influence of the Bolognese fencing tradition on the development of the Scuola Magistrale and its continuation into the modern era.