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Janna Datahan was born and raised in the Philippines and is currently living in the United States. She's a mother, a published poet, a fibre artist and an aesthetician. Janna discovered Historical European Martial Arts in late 2019 and found her way into the supportive arms of the sword community during the pandemic. She is an active tournament competitor and event organiser. She also hosts a podcast called Swords Against Humanity, a platform she uses to advocate for underrepresented voices in Historical European Martial Arts.
In this episode, Janna explains how she got into HEMA and the support she has received from the community. As a 4’10” woman of colour, Janna didn’t see many people who looked like her when she first started, and so being ‘adopted’ by Fran Lacuata opened up a platform for Janna to start her podcast and also become the social media liaison for the HEMA Alliance.
We talk quite a bit about tournaments – the good, the bad and the ugly, and Janna has ideas on the sorts of event that she would like to attend and how resources within HEMA could be better spent to improve the art.
Of course, as a person of non-average size, the topic of kit comes up, especially gauntlets. There’s also a bit of chat about touring Europe to visit castles and trebuchets, viral crochet patterns, and rage cleaning.
You can find Janna’s podcast, Swords Against Humanity, on your podcast player, and here is her Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/join/swordsagainsthumanity and her Etsy shop here: https://www.etsy.com/shop/TheTangledTentacleCo
Transcript
Guy Windsor
I'm here today with Janna Datahan, who was born and raised in the Philippines, and is currently living in the United States. She's a mother, a published poet, a fibre artist and an aesthetician. Janna discovered Historical European Martial Arts in late 2019 and found her way into the supportive arms of the sword community during the pandemic. She is an active tournament competitor and event organiser and also currently sitting on the historical Martial Arts Alliance Governing Council as the organization's social media liaison. She also hosts a podcast called Swords Against Humanity, a platform she uses to advocate for underrepresented voices in Historical European Martial Arts. So without further ado, Janna, welcome to the show.
Janna Datahan
Hi, I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
Guy Windsor
Oh, it's nice to meet you. And actually, I should shout out at this point to our regular listener Jason, who sent me a message on Sword People and said, Guy you really want to interview Janna. She's very interesting. So there we go. Ask and you may receive. So just to orient everybody whereabouts in the world are you?
Janna Datahan
So I'm currently based in Utah. I live just outside of Salt Lake City in one of the suburbs out there in a city called Lehi.
Guy Windsor
Okay, what brought you to Utah? It's a long way from the Philippines.
Janna Datahan
Yeah, so I actually lived in Florida first, I spent 12, 13 years in Florida, where my family was, or is still and I was with my ex-partner who moved to Utah for film work. And he asked me if I wanted to come with him and to work in the film industry out here because there is an industry here, surprisingly, and so I accepted the offer. And I went and moved here to work to make props for a TV show.
Guy Windsor
Okay, so we're already going into areas I wasn't aware of. So you make props for a TV show? What sort of props?
Janna Datahan
Yeah, I did it for one season. So we made a lot of leather stuff, like belts, pieces of armour. They're all like plastic armour. But they had leather pieces. My department was in charge of fabricating those pieces. So we did a lot of heat moulding, using hard plastic. It was a small team because it was a first season type of thing. So the budget wasn't very big. But it was for an established network. So it was shown on cable out here.
Guy Windsor
Can you tell us what show?
Janna Datahan
Don't watch it though. It's called The Outpost. It's on the FX TV channel. They since moved to I think… not Belgium. But some European country. I forget which. But after a season they moved, because I think it was cheaper to pay the carpenters in Eastern Europe and the US. But I've never worked for a TV show before. And it was I didn't realise how hard it was going to be, because I did props. But I was also asked to do costumes. I was an assistant, so I did a lot of the smaller stuff. I did like running errands. And then when it came to the days, like big production days, where we have like 150 to 100 background actors, I was in charge of handling the distressing of the clothes and then distributing the clothes and looking at someone for the first time and figuring out what size outfit they're going to be in. It was a lot of work, especially on the nights where it was cold and wet and snowy which we had a couple of. It was a time. It definitely was an experience that I don't know if I want to do again because it was a lot of work.
Guy Windsor
Okay, so is this related to your fibre art generally or is this peripheral to it?
Janna Datahan
It's not related. I actually started my fibre art journey the same year that I started HEMA. I was looking for something, I was in a really bad mental space. I was looking for something that would help with my anxiety and crochet was very meditative. I actually started knitting first and it just didn't jive with me. And I just went on YouTube and I'm like, I'm going to start crochet instead. And I just looked at a bunch of YouTube tutorials, bought some crochet hook some yarn and yeah, I just started crocheting like a fiend non-stop. And here I am. I have been doing crochet like on the side just as a hobby. And I made a Tik Tok video, because my friend challenged me to make this Star Wars headpiece. And I was like, yeah, I can try this because I made them a hat that kind of looked like the shape. And she was like, my friend was like, if you could make this and this and this adjustments to it, she doesn't know how to crochet. So I was like, okay, well, I can see if I can do it. And so I did it. And I posted it on Tik Tok just for fun, I didn't even know like what was going to happen to the video, and it went viral. And then a bunch of people started coming into my channel and was like, hey, where can I buy this pattern? Can you make this for me? And I'm like, what is happening? And I spent like three nights not sleeping, trying to figure it out. I've never written a crochet pattern before. And there is a certain like, professional way to do it. So I just like cobbled together one document that is a PDF form. And I just threw it on an Etsy store. And I'm currently sitting at 470-something sales. It was insane. I cannot believe that this is happening. And you know, I always see people talk about like, oh, yeah, social media changed my life. And, you know, going viral changed my life. In my case, it wasn't like crazy viral. But it was enough to get myself like my confidence in the craft that I do. Because I never had formal training. I literally taught myself using YouTube tutorials for free. And I was able to kind of create this, like, artsy space for myself that actually pays money, which is pretty great.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, the internet is a great democratizer. There are no gatekeepers, anyone can produce pretty much anything and stick it up. And if people like it, they can get paid to do it, whether they have formal qualifications or not. And I get what you mean about crafting during the pandemic. I spent most of the pandemic in my woodworking shed doing woodwork.
Janna Datahan
Yeah, I think everybody just kind of went into their space and figured out, like actually I have all this time to make to create something that is just for you and putting it out into the world. And like you said, if somebody likes it, it doesn't matter if you have credentials or not.
Guy Windsor
All right. So in the bio stuff you sent me, you say you are an aesthetician. Now I have a pretty good idea what that word means. But also, people who are listening obviously can't see you. And what they don't realise is you are the first guest I've ever had, who has pink headphones, that not only are pink, but also match perfectly with some of the pink in your top.
Janna Datahan
Okay, I love styling people. An aesthetician is someone who takes care of the cosmetic side of the skin. So you have dermatologists, and they take care of the health of the skin, right? So an aesthetician basically takes care of the surface. And then just a few layers, depending on where you live in the United States, you're limited to how much treatment you can do on the layers of the skin. There's usually like the first or second layer. And an aesthetician can also do professional makeup application. Waxing, so hair removal. Again, depending on what state you live in there are different laws. Some are allowed to do injection assisting, so you can work at a plastic surgery place or a medical spa. And yeah, just basically anything cosmetic that has something to do with the body, the skin. The only thing that we don't do is the hair on your head. So we can do eyebrows, moustache, eyelashes, we can do services on that, but that's what an aesthetician is.
Guy Windsor
Okay, so is that your day job?
Janna Datahan
Currently it is not, but I did go to school. I just graduated and I am getting ready to take the board exams because you have to get a license for it. So I just finished my hours earlier this year. And as soon as I get licensed, I'm able to start working. Right now my day job is a housekeeper, I work cleaning a medical office. And it's a really easy, fun job that actually pays really well. I started cleaning for an Airbnb, and then I kind of got tired of it because I just hate doing laundry. And I have to do like, laundry in a span of three hours. And you have a lot of beds and stuff. And I'm like, I cannot do this. So I went and found a different job. And cleaning offices is so much easier than cleaning a house. And it pays pretty well. So that's currently what I'm doing.
Guy Windsor
So you describe cleaning a medical office as fun. Could you expand on that?
Janna Datahan
Okay, so I don't know if some people will relate to this. But cleaning is almost like a meditation for me. I've also done like rage cleaning.
Guy Windsor
Did you say rage cleaning? So when you're really, really angry you clean stuff? So what I am going to do is I want you to come to my house. I'm going to swear at you and make you really angry. And then just step back and let the magic happen.
Janna Datahan
Yeah, basically, just find me on a bad day. And I'll come over and we’ll deep clean. But yeah, I say it's fun, because I get to work with my partner. And basically, I can put my headphones on, or we can just chat as we're doing stuff, dusting things, mopping and all that. And honestly, we do it every day so it's not really a ton of work. It's mostly just surface cleaning and a little bit of disinfecting. And, yeah, it's nice to get to work with people that you actually like, and we get to come in after a certain time. And it doesn't matter what time after that time, as long as we get the job done. So it's very flexible in that way. And sometimes there'll be, because it's a medical office, they'll have reps coming in. So they'll like, bring in food. And at the end of the day, if it's being thrown out, and it's still good, you get to take it off as they don't care. So, yeah, that's what I mean, when I say it's fun in that way, but also again, like rage cleaning, and you know, just the meditation side of it, and you just get into the zone, and you just want to like scrub that one little spot on the sink. And you're just like, yeah, I'm going to get you, I'm gonna get you.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, I do actually know what you mean. Sometimes I put headphones on if I'm cleaning the kitchen or whatever. And it makes all the difference having that sort of level of distraction. Gets the mind going. And so half of your head is away listening to a podcast and the rest of it is, no, I'm actually going to clear everything off the counters and do this properly.
Janna Datahan
Exactly.
Guy Windsor
Okay. So how did you get into historical martial arts?
Janna Datahan
I watched Highlander when I was a kid. I watched Xena Warrior Princess, Adventures of Hercules. And I have always been fascinated with the big swords. And when I was living with my ex-partner, he is a sword maker. So I was surrounded by his crafting stuff. And so I was just outside of that world. So I started meeting some local HEMA people on the side, not caring what was happening. I just like, you know, sometimes a guy with a sword shows up at my house, and they'd be like, you know, do this. And so one day, he told me that there was a Ladies’ Night event, and I didn't realise that it was Give a Girl a Sword event that was started by Fran. And I didn't realise this. I just went and I was like, okay, yeah, it's down the street. So I went and I was like, this is so cool. Because I was in this huge room with it was a huge group of women too. There were young girls, there were older women. I don't know, I felt energized after that. And so I'm like, well, I guess I'm going to come back and they're offering four free classes. So I'll come back and check it out. And it was really cool to get to swing like a “real sword”. And it felt really good. And he was like, oh, here, I made you something. And it was a sword. Yeah, it was nice, you know, but it was a Hanway tinker that he rebuilt it, and I can’t fence anybody with it. So it was good for like practicing by yourself when solo training. So it was my sword for a while. All throughout the pandemic, actually.
Guy Windsor
Is that sharp?
Janna Datahan
No, it was not. It was blunted. Yeah, I actually turned it into a sharp and then I'm like, I don't want to and then I sold it. But it was it started off as a blunt. But, yeah, so this was November of 2019. And then the pandemic happened not long after that, and my relationship with that person also ended. So I spent the first like four months of the pandemic, homeless with my kid and the pets, and I was couch surfing for a while. And HEMA was like something that was very accessible to me because I already had a tool. And then I kind of had like, a basic knowledge from the four classes that I attended. So I was just like doing like the first four quadrants of the Meyer square over and over again for four months. And then one day, I just was like, why don't I post this on Instagram? And I did. I didn't realise this, until people started finding me. And I'm like, who are these people? And then I realised that a bunch of instructors were bored at home, during the pandemic, and they found me and they were like, wow, who is this new person? And one of them was Fran, and we just started talking.
Guy Windsor
Fran Lacuata, who was the second person I interviewed on this show. Jessica Finley was number one. And Fran was my top pick for number two.
Janna Datahan
That's amazing. They're my favourite women in HEMA I've met. Well, I've not met Fran yet in person, but we talk a lot. And I met Jess for the first time last summer. It was really weird that people started following me through my Instagram. I never realised it that there was a big community that was super supportive. And I think I landed on the good supportive side of it, because I was hella new. I was looking back at my videos from when I started. I'm like, girl. Yeah.
Guy Windsor
There were other people who could have taken notice and that would have gone very differently.
Janna Datahan
That's what I've learned. And I keep learning as I stay in this community. So I'm super grateful that those people found me. And yeah, so I actually was asking for feedback at the time. So I asked people like, hey, what do you think I could do? Like, what are you noticing about what I'm doing? And so one of the first things that I was able to fix was my hips, because everybody was like, use your hips, engage hips. And I'm like, okay, hips don't lie, I guess. So, that's how I got started. When I was able to go back to Utah, I found that there were a couple of local clubs. So I just joined and back then everybody was outside. And it was a lot smaller, I realise how much it's grown, it blew up after the pandemic, it seems like, at least locally, because when I started, there were three or four of us that were consistently coming. And now they have a huge beginners’ class. It was a weird start. And you know, I don't even know how to count when did you start HEMA? And I'm like, do you start like, when you actually like first started and took four classes and there was like, this huge gap in the middle because of the pandemic and then you actually joined the club like where do you start?
Guy Windsor
Yeah, I mean, I, I tend to think of it as I started when my friend Paul and I tried to murder each other like civilized people instead of doing sport fencing back in September 1992. That's like the official. And then I obviously I can date when I became a full time professional to March 17th 2001, because that was the day the first class of my new school as it was then in Helsinki. So I have those dates fairly clear in my head. But yeah, it's when did it even become Historical European Martial Arts? I have no idea. That term didn't even really exist 20 years ago. We called it historical fencing, historical sword play, historical swordsmanship. I mean that there's lots of different names for it. So tell me about the HEMA Governing Council because I don't even know what it is. I don't feel governed by it.
Janna Datahan
Yeah. Okay. So just to be clear, because I know that people will freak out by you saying Governing Council, the HEMA Alliance isn't governing anything. So it is a membership type of group. The Alliance collects dues and it provides insurance for students in clubs, event support, and they have a website that is used by a lot of people to find clubs.
Guy Windsor
So let me clarify. So the Governing Council governs the HEMA Alliance, the HEMA Alliance doesn't govern anything.
Janna Datahan
So the HEMA Alliance doesn't govern anything in HEMA. Can you imagine, though?
Guy Windsor
People have tried.
Janna Datahan
I don't know, I have feelings about it, but I don't think I should talk about it here. I'm still new to Hema, I feel very new still, and I still am learning a lot and with the HEMA Alliance, they provide a lot of support for the clubs that are already existing and for the students that are wanting to join and want extra insurance. And for the clubs, who are members of the council, it is usually required that they purchase their own membership. So the HEMA Alliance also provide event support, so if there is a tournament, or some kind of team event, the HEMA Alliance also gives money to them in support of that tournament to fund it. And then, the extra insurance as well. For people who compete and stuff so you have insurance on top of that.
Guy Windsor
This is in the US primarily, yes.
Janna Datahan
Yeah. It is. It is not a governing council. Don't cancel me.
Guy Windsor
Literally, I got that phrase from the stuff you sent me. So that's, that's where Hema Alliance Governing Council comes from. It was literally, that's what was in what you sent me. Not my fault.
Janna Datahan
I should have clarified. So there's council members, and it's a small group of individuals, and it's a volunteer right now. They used to have elections, but there aren't a lot of people wanting to run. So my position and I think, two other people that came in, basically, there weren't other people who wanted the position. So they just like, well, this person can be vetted, so we can give them the position. So there were no elections that were held this time. And I don't know how long it's been since they had an election, but so don't quote me on that. But it's a volunteer thing. We don't get paid to do any of this. But it does help the community in some ways.
Guy Windsor
Sure. What is the social media liaison?
Janna Datahan
It's just someone who posts stuff on the internet really, like Facebook.
Guy Windsor
You manage their social media account?
Janna Datahan
Yeah. One of the new things that they're doing right now with the council is, there is they're releasing information on the website to help people who want to build their school or their club. And there's information that you could follow that's coming out on the website and to disseminate that information. Because internet is where it's at right now. Looking at avenues and getting people this information and one of the things that I was able to help with, because I just got this position not long ago, is to find ways to help with this. And there is a big Discord server with a lot of HEMA people in it. And I told the president, hey, instead of creating something new, why don't we just collaborate with this group that's already established, it's got a lot of people already in it that are active, we can just ask for a channel. And I'll talk to the person in charge who owns the server and see what they do. And that's kind of what I've been doing with HEMA, I haven't really done a lot with the HEMA Alliance. But so far, that's kind of been my job in the council.
Guy Windsor
It's pretty unusual for someone who is a relatively new to an activity to kind of jump into things like Council membership and committee members, that sort of thing. It suggests that you're interested in the historical martial arts as a phenomenon, and as a community and as a culture as much as you're interested in specifically, how you swing swords around.
Janna Datahan
Yeah. And I think it's because of the sense of support and community that I've felt, and I've seen people show, and I've just met the most caring people in the community. For as much bad, as I've seen and heard about, there is so much like support and kindness, and goodness within the people that I've met. And it's so interesting. I've met like moms, dads, teachers, scientists, and it's such an interesting community, because there's so many different types of people. I've been in the nerdy, cosplay Comic Con scene before when I was living in Florida. And it is kind of the same, but people are basically like, oh, you're either like a Marvel fan, or a DC fan, or you're Doctor Who, but here, I don't know, it's kind of the same, but also you have the tournaments, which is very interesting, especially here in the US. And then, you know, you have like people who just want to do the scholarly side of it, and then people who just want to compete, and then people who are in the middle that are, doing competitions, and also teaching and continuously learning about the art. So it's a lot more interesting to me. And, again, when I started, HEMA, when I started becoming more active in the community, there wasn't a lot of people who looked like me, and there wasn't a lot of people that I could relate to when they started. And a lot of it were just people who are established, medallists and stuff, and I think that's the reason why Fran kind of took me under her wing.
Guy Windsor
‘Adopted’ was the word I was thinking of.
Janna Datahan
She's said this to me multiple times. She saw a lot of herself in me when she was starting out. And I have been really grateful that she gave shared her platform many times with me, as someone who is new. And that's what I'm trying to do as well, as I want to show people I guess, and I've never really had a plan when I started this, and I got into all of this stuff and people started getting to know me. I guess what it is, is I couldn't see myself. I'm short. I'm 4’10”. I'm a woman of colour. And I didn't really see myself in the things that I was seeing in HEMA. And then I met Fran, and I was like, wow, someone who's kind of like me and is so amazing. And so I kind of tried to model from her example, basically, and I didn't realise how much people who were beginners like me, who are I guess struggling with a lot of things when it comes to like fitting in into HEMA in terms of, and I talk about this a lot in my podcast and online. I talk about being able to fit in gear and not having gear that fits me and having to spend all this money and still not have the equipment that is comfortable and just allows me to move in a non like, artificial way, if that makes sense. But I feel like I'm rambling at this point.
Guy Windsor
Okay. Well, let me jump in with a directing question then. Because what you're describing is pretty much exactly what I started this podcast for. So that people who are not middle aged bald white dudes would find people like them, who have made sufficient of a name for themselves that they can come on to this show and it doesn't seem odd. But they're not all 10 years of historical martial arts training, won a bunch of tournaments or anything like that. And we have people from all sorts of backgrounds with all sorts of sword related interests, and stage combat people and historical fiction writers and people who do reenactment and people who do Buhurt, and people who do living history who have never actually liked swords. They don't do swords at all, they just do living history. Precisely so that people like you coming into this can get a feeling of well, actually, yes, people like me can do this sort of thing. It's not just middle-aged white dudes like me. So your podcast is specifically, I mean, Swords Against Humanity is a slightly risky title. But why don't you tell us a little bit about how you're approaching the same problem through your podcast?
Janna Datahan
Yeah. So I actually started this whole podcast thing, by guessing in Fran’s podcast of By The Sword podcast. So she's asked me a few times.
Guy Windsor
Can I just say, she's never asked me.
Janna Datahan
Really? I have to call her out on that.
Guy Windsor
I am not offended. I just think it's funny.
Janna Datahan
Yeah, so we actually became really good friends. In 2020, it started in 2020. And it just felt like we were soul sisters, we were both going through like a really rough time in our lives. And she was like, hey, you should come into the podcast. And we'll do like an extra episode. And we'll call it Swords and Mental Health. And so I was like, yeah, that's such a great idea. Let's do it. And I thought it was going to be like a one off thing. It was something that we would just do once. And then that would be it. But it had a really good reception. And we did it a few times. And then when things kind of started to slow on her side, we were talking about it, I'm like, what if I continue this? Because this is something that, you know, actually I started getting people sending me messages and telling me how it's helped them to not feel less alone or less crazy, and they don't feel like they're actually being needy, because of the things that Fran and I will talk about, because we would talk about equity, we would talk about our experiences in tournaments, as smaller women, as women of colour. And just being a woman in general in HEMA. There's still a lot of misogyny and just disrespect. And I'm not afraid to say that, I've said it many times in public. And it was a thing that we would just be chatting every day. And a lot of people really gravitated toward that. A lot of women, a lot of minorities started following the podcast and looking forward to it whenever our episode will come out. I didn't even think that people would care what I say because I'm a nobody. I don't have medals. I have only been doing it for a year at that point. And I don't even have my complete kit at the time. And so I didn't realise that I can be the representation that I was looking for when I first started and I didn't realise that people would care about what a beginner would think about, especially someone who looked like me. I am not a 20, 30 something year old white guy who can fit in whatever off the rack HEMA kit. At some points, I was like, am I complaining too much? And then I would get messages from people and be like, I can relate girl, let me tell you about my story. And I'm like, yeah, spill the tea, I want to hear about it. And the more that I get messages from people saying they appreciate what I say, and they can relate to it. And it makes them feel seen, the more I wanted to do it, and I should just keep going. Because there is just so much, the US is so big, there is so much diversity in the practitioners here. And I just need to like find these people, most of the time they find me, and which is crazy, because I thought that it was just going to be like a US thing. But I like last year, I got asked by a women's club in Chile, to have a little talk for their event, which blew my mind. I'm like, I Okay, like, it's an honour. And so it was a very humbling experience. Because, my friend was like, hey, whenever you feel down, remember, a bunch of women in Chile thought of you and wanted you to talk to them. So, yeah, I feel like I owe a lot to Fran because she shared her platform with me. And I thought that, I should do the same. Like I've gotten to the point where people acknowledge what I say and respect my perspective as a person of colour, as a woman trying to, I guess, thrive in the community. And I want to bring those similar perspectives and highlight voices that you don't get to see a lot because I feel like the loudest voices in HEMA have always been guys. And I’ve met a lot of guys, you know. So yeah, and now we're here.
Guy Windsor
Okay, and the reason I invited you is because Jason told me that I should. So I did a little research. Yeah, absolutely. Let’s have her on. And so I asked Fran, and she introduced us and there we go. But maybe you might like to know that Jason is a middle-aged white dude. Who appreciates your point of view sufficiently that he recommended you for this show.
Janna Datahan
That's amazing. Well, Jason, thank you, if you're listening to this. So I want to say I'm surprised but actually, I'm not. Because what's crazy is when I started going to events, and this was after Fran and I have had like a few episodes of Swords and Mental Health out. I've had like instructors who are just regular HEMA dude, you know, been competing for a while, come up to me and talk to me about how they've listened to the podcast, they've listened to what I had to say, as a student, as a beginner, and it helped them realise some things and help them change things with the way that they teach their students, and this was, coming out of nowhere. I'm like, my first time at a big regional tournament and walking around, and then some dude stops me and they're like, oh, you're Janna. I listened to the stuff that you had on the podcast. And so I didn't realise it. But again, like I said, I think I landed on the good side of HEMA, if that makes sense, where a lot of the guys, I mean, I've met some not very pleasant people, but I've met a few guys who are white, who are trying to be more, I guess, understanding. And so that's really great. And having someone recommending me for the show, for your podcast. I was surprised when you when you actually asked.
Guy Windsor
I don't know why none of the women who listen to this recommended you. Why did none of them say Guy, you really want to have Janna on? That's kind of weird. Okay, so, again, you clearly have an interest in sort of the broader phenomenon of historical martial arts. So what do you see the historical martial arts world prioritizing?
Janna Datahan
What do you mean, when you say, prioritizing?
Guy Windsor
Where does the money go?
Janna Datahan
I think right now, a lot of it goes to events. I went on a bunch of tournaments last year. And I didn't realise that there are people who actually follow like a whole circuit. And it's expensive, I didn't realise that it was very expensive, it can be expensive to run an event, go to an event, compete in an event, because you have to pay, at least here in the US, you have to pay for your registration to be able to get in, and then you have to pay separately for each event that you want to compete in. So it stacks up. And then you have to think about if you're competing from out of state, you have to travel, either you drive, or you fly. And sometimes you'll be lucky and you get like a cheap flight. And that's good. But when you add in the expense of eating out and the hotels. It stacks up. And right now, with the insurance thing with like, cutting competitions, that is also a lot of money from what I understand.
Guy Windsor
What is the insurance thing for the cutting competitions?
Janna Datahan
From what I understand, insurance companies are dropping cutting competitions for insurance. I guess it’s some kind of liability thing. I've never done like a cutting event. Brittany would be the best person to ask about this.
Guy Windsor
Brittany’s a good friend who has been on the show twice. Just saying.
Janna Datahan
Yeah, she's actually one of the first women who I've met from outside of my club that was super supportive and super nice. But yeah, cutting was actually my favourite thing. Because it didn't require gear. It just required a sharp sword, and you can even get it loaned. But with the insurance thing, from what I understand, like there's been like this wave of insurance companies just refusing to insure cutting competitions. So if you see if you hear about a cutting competition happening, they spent a lot of money making that happen.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, that's bizarre to me, because cutting competitions are vastly safer than tournaments. Vastly safer.
Janna Datahan
Oh, yeah. I definitely agree. As someone who started off cutting and still pursue cutting, I have never gotten hurt in a cutting competition.
Guy Windsor
No, you really have to be very unlucky or very stupid to get hurt in a cutting competition.
Janna Datahan
I agree. I agree. But yeah, so that's where I feel like we're all the money is going in HEMA. I think it's because people love to see their friends, a sense of community, seeing their friends and fencing new people and fencing their friends. And it's like a vacation. I did it for a whole year. I did a few events in one year, and it was a lot of fun, but I did get hurt a couple of times. I received a concussion back in February, and then I got pezzed like three or four months later at another tournament.
Guy Windsor
For people who may not know the term, what is pezzed?
Janna Datahan
Being pezzed is when you eat a thrust right smack on your mask and your head just bobs back and forth like a little pez dispenser, so that was not fun. But definitely that's when I learned how costly it was when you do multiples. And then the year before that I helped out in organizing a couple of tournaments. One was a smallsword tournament and then the other one was a regional HEMA event that happened in Salt Lake City, and I didn't realise how much money goes into it and really nobody is profiting off of big events because of how expensive they are. From what I understand, like I've never done like the financial side of it, I've just like sat down in meetings.
Guy Windsor
Nobody runs these events to make money, because there isn't any money in them. It all goes into the expenses, the venue, the insurance, the setting up, all that sort of stuff.
Janna Datahan
Yeah. So that's where I see a lot of the money going into these events, whether it's coming from the fencer trying to go to the event, and then the organisers trying to make these events happen.
Guy Windsor
And what do you think the community could be doing better?
Janna Datahan
Well, I guess, in a small way, I'm saying this as someone who loves competing, who enjoys competing, even though I've gotten hurt. I think that there's so many events happening, it's everywhere right now. But personally, I've gotten a lot of value from going to a class and paying for someone like Jess Finley to come to our town and teach HEMA. And I feel like, there isn't enough resources being put into that.
Guy Windsor
I sometimes get invited to teach seminars in places and in fact it is a significant part of the way I make my living. And, yeah, I think it can come across as a bit of self-interested, but even if I never taught another seminar myself, I think the community would do well to put more money into training and research and maybe less money into tournaments. It would result in getting closer to the historical and martial and artistic goals that most people seem to have.
Janna Datahan
Yeah, I definitely agree. And I think that there is a place for tournaments, and I don't think tournaments are ever going to go away. But there is so much resource being pumped into events, and not a lot for other things. I believe that when, when people come to teach, and they share their knowledge with you, they should be compensated for their time. That's coming from someone who's worked with using my talents and gotten paid for it. And people are willing to pay your worth. And this is something that I've noticed, and I don't know if it's everywhere, but I've noticed that there is an expectation like, you know, I've just seen like very poorly compensated instructors.
Guy Windsor
When people ask me what I charge for teaching a weekend seminar. There are two responses. One is “Holy shit, that's ridiculous. There's no way we can pay that.” And the other is “Holy shit. That's too cheap.” Right? Yeah. Yeah. And pretty much no one goes, “Yeah, that seems about right.” Because either the expectation is basically, well, everyone loves doing this. You must love doing this. You love doing your job. I do love to my choice. It’s fantastic, I love it. But still, if I'm away from my family for a week, it's a very different conversation with my wife if I say I'm off to do swordy stuff, I'll see you in two weeks’ time, or I'm off to do swordy stuff, I'll see you in two weeks’ time, I'll be bringing you this much cash with me that we can use to feed the children. It's a very different conversation. My wife is super lovely and supportive as she’d encourage me to go even if there was no money coming in, but it's not really fair. It is strange how the community generally just isn't wired for paying their instructors. I guess it's because most of most clubs are taught by amateurs. At best it is a side gig for the instructor. This has been my full time living since 2001. So, I come at it from that perspective. I do events like the last time I was at, for instance, Swordsquatch in Seattle. They pay the expenses and put me up and whatever, it doesn't cost me anything to go and I'm teaching some classes and I'm hanging out with a bunch of other instructors. There are like 30 other instructors there, it’s totally worth my time. That's expenses only. When it's just me teaching for the weekend, that's when I expect to get paid. I think that's reasonable.
Janna Datahan
I think it's more than reasonable. Both my parents are teachers, and I've seen the work that you put into when you're teaching people, especially groups, and again, I've always firmly believed that people should be paid for their time. I understand that a lot of money goes into events, but like you said, HEMA wouldn't happen if there weren't people teaching it. And if we can put resources into a lot of other things in HEMA then we should put a little bit more into the people who help us have a foundation and so that we're able to do this, if that makes sense. And so yeah, that's my thing. And I would love to see, and that's something I've told Fran recently is, if there is a group, a body that funds things. This is just my opinion, by the way, this does not reflect the HEMA Alliance, but I would love to see some of that money go into paying someone like you, someone like Fran, someone like Jess Finley, to go out and teach more and actually be fairly compensated so that they can actually go and not worry about, well, I can't do this, because I have to go and work because I have to pay my bills. Or it's just not justifiable for me with my budget, I can work off of just like meals and board. And so you know, I that's something that I would love to see.
Guy Windsor
So the HEMA Alliance uses some of the money that it generates, to support events. So you're saying that you would think it'd be a good thing if it used some of that money to support instructor seminars?
Janna Datahan
Yes, that does not reflect the HEMA Alliance. That's just me.
Guy Windsor
If it did reflect the Alliance as a whole, they'd already be doing it.
Janna Datahan
Yes. But that's what I think, and I feel like we can do that. But right now, the focus, and the energy all goes into events. And again, there's nothing wrong with events, I think they're great. But I feel like instructors make all of this happen, people who teach make this happen. If there weren't any people teaching, regardless of whether they're amateur or their professional, if it's their side gig or it's their full time job, we would not able to do go to these events, without those people who taught us to begin with, so I think that there should be more energy and resources also pumped into that.
Guy Windsor
It may seem a little self-interested, but I entirely agree. Okay, so, there are a couple of questions that I asked most of my guests. One is, what's the best idea you haven't acted on yet?
Janna Datahan
Okay, so is it personally or like, HEMA community related?
Guy Windsor
How you interpret the question is as interesting as the answer.
Janna Datahan
Okay, so I have two actually, I thought about this. So there's a personal and more community based, okay, personal, and people who know me know this about me, I am a huge fan of trebuchets for no reason other than them.
Guy Windsor
I love trebuchets!
Janna Datahan
Okay, me too.
Guy Windsor
I have a friend who built a scale model, which was about maybe like a yard and a half long and about getting a yard or so high. And he brought it to my salle, that is in the middle of Finnish winter. So you couldn't really do that outside. And that thing is, oh my god, they're fantastic. And that kind of bullwhip action that flicks the sling across?
Janna Datahan
That’s so fun. They have this big trebuchet here in Utah. It's actually a full sized one. It's called the Sentinel. And I would always like drive to two hours north just to see this. And I finally caught them doing the fireball launch. It was awesome. I was like, this is the most amazing, beautiful thing I've ever heard. Because the whooshing sound sounds different. It's when there's fire in the projectile. So it's really cool. I love trebuchets because they're cool period. I would love to go to Europe because I've never seen a castle before, and I've never been to Europe. I saw this documentary called like about castles in Europe, and some of the castles they were showing they were showing the trebuchets, and I'm like, I want to go to Europe and visit my friends, do some HEMA stuff and then like go on like a trebuchet hunt and find like as many like trebuchets and castles that have trebuchets that I can realistically go to.
Guy Windsor
There are a lot of there are a lot of castles in Britain and a lot in Europe, and making it so that you only visit the ones that have trebuchets is a very good way of narrowing the field to a reasonable amount.
Janna Datahan
Yep. So that is my personal best idea.
Guy Windsor
So your personal best idea is a tour of castles in the UK or Europe where there are trebuchets. Brilliant. Okay, I think that is a doable thing. Now, I may be alone in this, but when I see a trebuchet one of the things I want to do is I want to sit on the projectile, and experience the thing, but obviously have some kind of wing arrangement, so that when it launches me up into the sky, and then I can kind of fly safely down. I don't think that's realistic. When I see a trebuchet there. Oh my god, that would just be the best.
Janna Datahan
I can totally see where you're coming from. Because there's been many times where I'm watching the launchers and I'm like, I wonder how it feels like, because the sound that it makes, you got to be going really fast.
Guy Windsor
The acceleration is horrendous.
Janna Datahan
The trebuchet here in Utah, they would have people participate. So you can come up to it. And like, you know, do the winding and I've seen the guys like, walk around it or, and are in front of where the projectile sits. And I'm like, what if like, I walk in front of it. Yeah, like, what if I do that? What if it just goes off? I'm like you so I have all of these like wild like ideas that you know for safety reasons will never happen. But I thought about that stuff. So I could see where you're coming from with those thoughts.
Guy Windsor
Go to space. Amazing. Okay, so, that's the personal one. What’s the HEMA one?
Janna Datahan
So the HEMA one. And I don't know if this is something that other people have done. I know that there is like a thing in the UK called Fightcamp. But I want to throw a fun less tournamenty event that focuses a lot more on play and learning in the West Coast, because I don't as far as I know, and I've looked, I've not seen one here in this side of the country.
Guy Windsor
Swordsquatch in Seattle is very much fun. And lots and lots of classes and lots of different classes. Very inclusivity oriented, very diversity oriented. They are also the only event I know of that has slots for, and this is a genius idea. It's very intimidating for a beginner instructor to teach like a two-hour class at an event. Because people are making a big commitment to be at that class rather than the next class. So they have short teaching slots, like 15, 20 minutes, which people can sign up for, to get some practice at teaching at big event. Isn’t that a genius idea? That's usually in September, and Seattle is about as West Coast as you can get. So there's that. Okay, so maybe do one in April. A bit further south, maybe like Portland, or you could do it in Utah, I suppose.
Janna Datahan
Yeah, we have a lot of campgrounds here. Because my idea was kind of like a HEMA summer camp with a yearbook thing where all of the people who register will have a little booklet. And you can like have the person that you fence with, either it's your friend or someone that you know that you're someone you've just met, to message you after you fence them, it's just yeah, that's a silly thing that my friend and I were talking about not that long ago because I'm like, I need like something. Because when you go to tournaments, you get super stressed out, at least in my case. I was an emotional wreck after my first longsword tournament. And it's gotten better, but there's always an anxiety. Which I never felt with cutting, by the way.
Guy Windsor
With cutting, no one is trying to actually hit you in the face.
Janna Datahan
That's true. That's true.
Guy Windsor
That should be a little bit stressful.
Janna Datahan
It's mentally stressful for sure. And that's why I love cutting is because I it's just me and this mat. And which, actually, I would like to share this with you. When I started cutting and cutting isn't big in the UK from what Fran told me. Do you guys have competitions like that there?
Guy Windsor
I don't know or care. I don’t pay any attention to any competitions. Now, when I was running my school in Helsinki, we would have cutting fairly regularly. I mean, I literally built a shed inside my salle to store the 50 bales of tatami that I ordered from a supplier. I take cutting pretty seriously. But I don't pay any attention to the competition's because I'm not particularly interested in them myself.
Janna Datahan
This something actually that I forgot to bring up is because I'm short, I'm 4 foot 10. I'm very, very short. And when I started competing, all of the stands were the same height. The tatami is always towering over me. And so I have like my friend who is six foot tall. And here I am, just trying to compete. And I actually spoke about this a couple of times in Frans podcast, and people actually read more into that, which was great, because I asked someone who was doing a cutting workshop, and I was like what was their actual reason, why are the stands are this height? Is there like, a reason why they have to be this height? Because I'm like this height? And what do you do when you're cutting the very top when you're doing the feats? And you want to have the most cuts? What do I do? Because people are saying, oh, you have to have a solid structure. And I'm like, well, I can't really do that. If I'm trying to get to the top, I would have to be like standing straight or like you said, I have to be standing on a chair. But I didn't get an answer to this for a while. And I thought that people were just like, yeah, it's just like a short girl. She just won't stop talking about it. But when I went and competed last year, at Valley of the Sun cutting tournament, they had two stands now, one of it was a lot shorter. And I was like, interesting. I wonder it's because I complained about it's so much on the internet. And I found out that a part of it was because I asked the question, and it made them think and it made them think about their own cutting. And Brittany, I talked to her about it. And she's like, yeah, I'm not very tall, as well. And I've noticed that you know, I do certain things to be able to reach the mat. And so, she basically said that I helped kind of innovate that having two stands, so again it just goes back to just being a beginner and having so much kindness and people actually like taking me seriously and not just saying well, she's a newbie, who cares what they're saying? So yeah, that's why I love HEMA.
Guy Windsor
So the idea you haven't acted on is to have a like a sword camp, maybe in April. Not this year. Obviously. It's too soon. Where you get you have, almost like a dance card, like a Regency dance, where you can write down who you fence, then they write little notes for you, whatever. And it's all very, very sort of social and organised. And I would imagine there's going to be like, classes you can attend with different instructors doing different things.
Janna Datahan
Okay, yeah, yeah. And it's so funny, you mentioned dance cards, because that's how some HEMA people make their tournament dates with their friends. And they'll just have like this dance card, I'm going to fence this friend I haven't seen in a few months, and all of that. And I'm like, this is like, such a good way to do it without having the stress of a tournament. Because it does take a lot out of you mentally, physically, and emotionally, when you compete. And as much as some people don't want to admit to it, it does.
Guy Windsor
That's part of the value of a tournament. I mean, the thing that I think tournaments are most useful for in a martial artists education is, it's a form of it's an environment where you go in, and you have genuine competition, and you learn to deal with the stresses and the particular things that happen in a tournament, which it's not so much to do with technical development, it is much more to do with your ability to handle that kind of competitive environment, which is not the same as but is related to the competitive environment when someone's actually really trying to hit you.
Janna Datahan
Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's, it's a lot. And I also want to, I just want to go to an event where especially, you know, like I said, like, if I'm paying a lot of money, that's why I'm not competing this year. I would love to support my friends. But I also don't want to spend like hundreds of dollars just to sit there.
Guy Windsor
Here’s a thought, okay, I went to an event in Baltimore. Lord Baltimore's Challenge was sort of rebranded as Lord Baltimore's College, in October last year in Baltimore. And it was a really interesting sort of environment where previously, they've had classes on the first day and tournament on the second day. And this time, the weekend was all about making the fencers better fencers. And part of that was the five or six instructors, each had their own group, and they trained their group however they wanted. And then the groups went, and they did sort of grudge matches with each other. So you've got the environment where you are your group’s champion, you are fighting someone for the honour of your group. And there is there are, not consequences, but there's, there's sort of social credit involved. So there's pressure. So you get aspects of the tournament environment, but you don't get any of the bullshit that goes around organizing a tournament like, you know, organizing the pools and having the desks set up and recording the scoring and doing all that stuff, which has its place and is useful, but actually interferes with the fencers actually fencing. So what this did was everybody got more than enough actual fencing. But they'd got it in an environment that was structured by the instructors to be instructional.
Janna Datahan
That sounds delightful.
Guy Windsor
And it was fantastic. I wrote it up on my blog. I'll stick a link in the show notes so people can see because obviously, it's you know, it's been six months and eliding some of the details in my head. But I wrote it all up afterwards and stuck it on the blog, so you can see the details there. But something closer to that. Because people do want to do the fencing and the fencing is great, and it's a large part of the reason most people do this. And that's not a bad thing. They need opportunities to fence, and they come to an event. Nobody left Lord Baltimore’s College wishing they'd got more fencing done. They all got all the fencing they wanted.
Janna Datahan
That is a feat. Wow, that’s incredible.
Guy Windsor
And it was because they gave up the formal tournament side of things in favour of the fencing side of things.
Janna Datahan
So that's definitely something that I would go to, and I've actually thought about just skipping the super like organised tournaments, because when I mentioned being hurt earlier, last year, I spent eight months training. I went to the gym, I started lifting. I did like a lot of conditioning. And then I did fencing on top of that regularly. It was a women's tournament. URG, I got to the tournament, and I had to drop out after I think it was my third match. I had to drop out. Because it was a late blow to my head. I had gotten the person in their forearm, so I was holding it up like this. And they had called ‘hold’. And then I started relaxing. And then they just went wham, at my head.
Guy Windsor
Wow, did they get red carded for that?
Janna Datahan
They did not. They actually continued the tournament. The director was actually trying to yellow card me for exposing the back of my head a couple of times. I'm like what is happening? It was wild. And so that was like the first indication for me. And then I went to a different tournament again, I was bummed out because I trained consistently for eight months. I was dieting, going into the gym, fencing, and then boom, all it took was just one incident. And then I had to drop out. And that sucked.
Guy Windsor
But that is also that is a factor of several things. Firstly, it's how other people are training. And secondly, it's how the tournament itself is structured. Because if these things are organised properly, you don't get injuries like that. They just don't happen.
Janna Datahan
Yeah. And that's why when you brought up, I'm sorry, my concussion is like happening, forgetting where I'm going. Having an organised thing, I would rather do that. Because I would love to just fence and then not having to change the way I fence. And this is something that I didn't realise is you have to fence a little differently when you're doing a tournament because they're being judged by human eyes, there's no electronic scoring. You have to be more showy when you thrust, when you when you cut, it has to be very obvious. And the way that I've been training, I never really trained to fence tournament style, if that makes sense, if that's actually a thing. My friend who trained me was like, okay, this is how we're going to train. And then we got to the tournament, and they've never done a tournament before. And they were like, okay, you got to make it more obvious. You got to hit them a little harder. And I'm like, I don't want to hit them hard. I don't want to thrust hard. I don't want to see this metal thing like bend on someone's body, but that's sometimes what it takes. And I've had calls missed because I don't hit that hard. I had speared someone in their wrist during my first tournament, and they still didn't count it because they didn't see the action. I definitely have pressure tested myself in that way. But in terms of my fencing getting better, when it comes to the art, I personally have not seen any improvement. It's fun. But it doesn't add to the art.
Guy Windsor
Well, yeah, you don't get better at tournaments. You get better in between tournaments. And then the tournament tells you whether you're better at tournament fencing now or not.
Janna Datahan
Yeah, yeah. And that's for something that I find fun doing I actually love learning this. English is my second language. So having to learn a third one. And a fourth one, that’s why I feel like my progress has been slow because the first time I tried to read the Zettel, I just kept falling asleep and like, why is this so hard? And then having to learn different terms in German because my club does Meyer and KDF. And so I've gotten to the point where I would rather go to events where I actually get value for my art. I would still do fun tournaments, but I would rather see my money go to a place where I come home not battered, to be honest. It was so funny, every time my partner and I, we did a bunch of tournaments last year together, and it's so funny, we would go to the grocery store and I realised that we would go to the grocery store, we look like a domestic violence couple, because I'd be all bruised up and he got his shoulder dislocated at a leather dussack tournament, which was so crazy. And he had his arm in a sling. He's got like bruises on his leg. So we're just walking around the store, buying groceries and look like we just got into a fight. Yeah, we did, but with each other. But yeah, so that's something that we talked about, we should just like go in a more chill, low key, growing our art type of events. So that's where I'm at, personally. Again, I support my friends that go to tournaments. Love that for them.
Guy Windsor
Sure. Nobody's saying tournaments are a bad idea. It's just, they're not the be all and end all. Okay. So my last question, somebody gives you a million dollars or similarly large sum of imaginary money to spend improving historical martial arts worldwide? How would you spend it?
Janna Datahan
Okay, so I would love to be able to make historical martial arts accessible for anyone who wants to do it and whether they want to compete, or they want to teach, or they want to just learn, I would love if I had that much money, I would help fund that. I would love to help events and actually pay their judges because judging is hard. A lot of people have been talking about this lately. They don't really get paid for the work that they do at events. And I would love to see more compensation for that. Same with instructors. I would love to be able to help clubs fund their gear for their students, so they have more safety equipment. And yeah, like I would just, you know, help grow like, even like the smallest club, like if you want to start something, here's $3,000. Start your thing. It's something that I have been on the receiving end of it. I've had people who have been generous to me. And I would love to be able, if I'm able to, if I had that kind of money, I would love to be able to do that for anyone. Because kits are expensive.
Guy Windsor
You’d set up a sort of grant giving organization that gave out money for club equipment and for paying judges and paying instructors. Is there any one particular area that you think is totally underfunded?
Janna Datahan
I feel like the scholarly side of it is definitely underfunded. And I think like innovation in gear would be something that I would pump a lot of money on. As someone who has had had nonstop trouble with gear, I would love to just like pay a bunch of people to figure this out. How do you make someone who has tiny hands fit in your gloves without having to shrink the pattern?
Guy Windsor
Here's the thing. If you've got tiny hands, you don't want to have enormous gloves, covering up your tiny hands. You want gloves that actually fit. They do have they do have to make the pattern smaller. But the thing is, bespoke armour gauntlets, the rule of thumb is $100 for every finger you want to keep. That's if you're getting bespoke armour. So a $1,000 pair of custom-made steel gauntlets, you're likely to keep all your fingers unbroken. My steel gauntlets, they only cost me about $200. And I actually still have all my fingers. And I've been using these gauntlets for like 15 years now. They are fantastic. So it's not an exact thing. But getting gauntlets that are sized correctly isn't that hard? I mean, I solved this problem for my students by going to the Czech Republic and getting an armour maker there. They now have they rebranded as Armor online about 15 years ago, I think they I gave them three pairs of gloves, which were equivalent to small, medium and large. And they made steel gauntlets to fit those gloves and so my students will get these fencing gloves, not shitty gardening gloves but proper fencing gloves. Like for sport fencing that actually fit them exactly, that's quite easy to do, because they come in all the sizes. And they would then glue and stitch those gloves into these steel gauntlets that they were getting from the Czech Republic. And they fit, it was fine. I mean, it worked. It worked for everyone, even the person with the smallest hands had gauntlets maybe a shade bigger than they should have been. But within spec for a couple of 100 euros. There wasn't anyone who had hands so big that they couldn't use the bigger ones. You know, I have relatively small hands for the rest of me. And I fit the mediums just fine. So it is a totally solvable problem.
Janna Datahan
Why is it just not being solved?
Guy Windsor
It's because it's a large part of it, I think, is because the event scene generally has gone the plastic route. And the problem with the plastic route is the whole thing has to be built as one unit. Also people are making these, as they are companies who are trying to make a living, if they need to sell 1000 of a particular size for it to be worth making that size, and only ever going to sell 100 of them. They can't make that size because they can't afford to subsidise these parts of the market. Although a chap I interviewed recently he does Thokk gloves. His episode came out beginning of March this year, 2024. We actually discussed he does make small goals for ethical reasons. But he hasn't got his production costs back on them ever. But he may he makes them available for ethical reasons, because he's a nice bloke.
Janna Datahan
I don't know which glove you're speaking about. But I do actually own the extra small. And it's the most comfortable gloves that I own. Aside from the five finger gloves that I have, but it's freakishly long in the fingers. But I still use it. A lot of people hate it for longsword, but I've never had an issue with it. But yeah, it's weird. I would put like, all my million dollars if I could, if we could have more diversity in in kit, especially gloves. One of my friends, I haven't released the episode yet, but he has a condition where his one side of his body is not developed. He has like less muscles on one side. And his hand is smaller. And so I interviewed him, and he talked about how hard it is to have just gloves for both of his hands, because they're not the same size.
Guy Windsor
So he has to buy two pairs, one big one small to get a pair that fits.
Janna Datahan
Yeah. So it's one of those like things like where are we going in terms of like accessibility, and just being realistic about that stuff? Because there are new gloves that are coming out that fit more smaller hands. I'm still in the search of better fitting gloves. I actually tried Jess Finley’s steel gauntlets. And I was like, whoa, this is like the most amazing thing I've ever put in my hands before. Like the dexterity and how protective it is. And the fit.
Guy Windsor
This is a problem that was solved 600 years ago.
Janna Datahan
That's crazy.
Guy Windsor
It's expensive to do well.
Janna Datahan
I feel like when I look at all of the gloves that I own, I own at least like four, if I remember correctly. I probably could just like consolidate all of how much it's worth just getting like a really nice pair of steel gauntlets.
Guy Windsor
Yes. This is one of the issues with cheap equipment of any kind. There's the saying in the woodworking world, that poor craftsman can't afford cheap tools. Because you always end up having to buy more. Better to save up and get a really good one than to waste your money on the cheap stuff. And I mean, the large part of the problem, of course, is that most tournaments don't allow steel gauntlets. Which is insane.
Janna Datahan
Yeah, to me, that's crazy, like and that's why I care a lot more about my hands because I guess like being a fibre artist being an aesthetician. I do a lot of things with my hands.
Guy Windsor
So does everybody. They are delicate and important.
Janna Datahan
I say this all the time, this is a hobby for a lot of us. And if you're competing as a hobby, you still have to go home to your family, you still have to go home to your day job. You still have to function in society, after all of this, and to have messed up broken hands, that's crazy. I've seen people get hurt during sparring, free sparring, locally at the club.
Guy Windsor
A friend of mine, a previous guest on the show, is a surgeon and she got her thumb broken during a seminar.
Janna Datahan
That's not good at all.
Guy Windsor
So yeah, this is dangerous. And I mean, I think it's a mistake, though, to rely on equipment, but we're talking about where we’re going to put the money, so subsidizing the production of equipment that actually fits smaller people, or sort of asymmetrically sized people or even particularly large people. I mean, giants have as many issues getting the right equipment as really small people.
Janna Datahan
Yeah, I have friends who are on the opposite side of the spectrum. And we've had a lot of talks about just getting a jacket, and pants and all of that. So it's definitely not just a small person problem.
Guy Windsor
But it is a non sort middle of the bell curve person problem. So if you're in the middle of the bell curve, you're fine. Because that's where most of the people are. And that's where they make most equipment for. It’s the people on the tails.
Janna Datahan
Yeah, I've lost count on how many guys have told me, well, I've never had a problem with this. How is this making sense to you look at me and look at you. How can you tell me to my face, that you've never had an issue with this? I'm like, I'm happy for you. But this is not helpful to me. It's very dismissive sometimes. People are like, well, have you tried this pair? Have you tried? I'm like, I've tried them all, babe, I am single mom, like, I'm on a single mom budget just trying to get this thing going, but yeah. That's definitely where my money is going to go.
Guy Windsor
Okay, fair enough. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Janna, it's been lovely meeting you.
Janna Datahan
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Thank you for having me, Guy.
