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Today’s episode is with Zeng Yang, who is a doctoral student at the Shanghai Sport University, where he is pursuing a PhD in the history of European swordsmanship from the 14th to the 17th centuries. He is a lifelong martial artist having begun training in Wushu at the age of eight. His master’s degree is a comparison of Duan Bing and HEMA.
In our conversation, we talk about the spread of Chinese martial arts to the Western world, through things like kung fu movies and immigration, but the question is, why the same hasn’t happened in the other direction? How could HEMA become more popular in China? We hear about a new term, Bing Ji, which combines all steel weapons in an exciting new form of cross-cultural communication.
Here’s a bit of detail on some of the terms that come up in this episode:
- Wushu: The official name of Chinese martial arts
- Guoshu: The name of Wushu in the early 20th century that literally means "the art of the nation", thus elevating the status of martial arts to the level of the country. But currently people no longer use this term.
- Tau lu (routine or form): It is a pre-designed practice method and an important form of expression in Chinese martial arts. It had already emerged in the Song Dynasty (960-1279 AD) and has been widely used since the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644 AD). It is very similar to Assalto in Marozzo. It usually has a fixed start and end action. Each routine roughly contains dozens of actions.
- Bing Ji: The literal meaning is "fighting with cold weapons", which broadly refers to all fighting sports related to steel weapons, and narrowly refers to the fighting sports of historical martial arts. It is a term that emerged around 2016 to replace the concept of HEMA. Because China's HEMA not only involves European weapons, but also includes Chinese weapons, many people believe that continuing to use HEMA is inappropriate. Therefore, this new term has been created to describe historical martial arts sports. At present, Bing Ji has been widely used in China, and it is used in almost all historical martial arts competitions.
Transcription
Guy Windsor
I'm here today with Zeng Yang, who is a doctoral student at the Shanghai Sport University, where he is pursuing a PhD in the history of European swordsmanship from the 14th to the 17th centuries. He is a lifelong martial artist having begun training in Wushu at the age of eight. His master’s degree is a comparison of Duan Bing and HEMA, and yes, I will be asking him what Duan Bing actually is, so don't worry. So, without further ado, Yang, welcome to the show.
Zeng Yang
Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Windsor.
Guy Windsor
Please, call me Guy.
Zeng Yang
I'm very glad to be here and it's my first time to connect with a HEMA professional, you know, professional practitioner and researcher. So, I'm very happy.
Guy Windsor
Excellent. And, of course, as we proceed through the interview, if you have any questions for me, feel free to ask them. But my first question is, now it should be kind of obvious from the introduction, but just to orient everybody who is listening, whereabouts in the world are you?
Zeng Yang
Okay, hello. My name is Zeng Yang, and I am currently living in Chengdu, the fourth largest city of China. And this is a very famous city known for panda and hotpot and relaxing way of life. So actually, Chengdu is the city of sport because last year it hosted the world university games. A good city.
Guy Windsor
So, whereabouts in China is Chengdu?
Zeng Yang
West side of China.
Guy Windsor
Excellent. So how did you get into historical martial arts? What piqued your interest in European historical martial arts?
Zeng Yang
Yeah, it's, um, it's a little bit complex, actually. First of all, I personally prefer to use the Historical European Martial Arts or European Historical Martial Arts, because in the Chinese context, we don't use the historical martial arts, this term. Because this term might include in Chinese traditional martial arts, so we prefer to use the tradition this kind of term. So let me get back to this question. During my master’s degree study I encountered the European historical martial arts in 2017 and before that, I had around 20 years of experience practicing Chinese Wushu, mainly about Chinese modern Wushu. Wushu is a Chinese martial art actually, a very accurate term. So, my major is very interesting. It is called Wushu and the Traditional Ethnic Sport. So it mainly focussed on the culture and history of Chinese martial arts, but as you can see, my major is a little bit conservative. So I think I am very curious about different cultures all the time, my whole life. So, in 2017, no Chinese scholar truly understands the European Martial Arts, although there are several papers who had discussed the difference between Chinese and the Western martial arts, but in all their papers, Western martial arts are about Olympic fencing and boxing, modern stuff. Yeah, modern stuff. So it made me confused. Because I know the Chinese martial arts history, I know the traditional thing and emerging thing. Martial arts must be developed, it developed from traditional to modern, right? So, in my opinion, I think the Olympic fencing, boxing or wrestling is modern. My question is, what are the traditional martial arts of Europe? Why didn’t our scholars talk about this? Why? So, from that time, I started to explore and collect so much information and materials about European Martial Arts. And then I found HEMA.
Guy Windsor
I must say, though, in fairness to those Chinese academics, most people in Europe and America and Western civilization generally don't know anything about Historical European Martial Arts, either. So your average academic in Australia or, or Brazil or wherever, has no clue that European Martial Arts even existed. So it's kind of understandable that these guys in China would also be ignorant of the historical stuff, because it's a relatively new discipline. I mean, I started about 30 years ago, and that was at the very beginning of it. So it's a new discipline. There aren't that many publications. And there are almost no publications in the kind of places where modern professional University academics would go to look. So, you know, kind of fair enough, but I'm very glad that you spotted the gap and then jumped into it.
Zeng Yang
Actually, I researched a little bit the HEMA history and Western European Martial arts history. So, what I say to those scholars, top scholars, not a normal scholar, one of them is my professor. For the top scholars, they don't know about this, it's very weird for me, you know?
Guy Windsor
Well, they wouldn't have looked. So. Okay. You have a paper, which was published in 2018 on the general characteristics of European Martial Arts in the Renaissance. And that made me curious because I know quite a lot about Renaissance European Martial Arts. And so I'd like to know from your perspective, what do you see as those general characteristics?
Zeng Yang
Yeah, you are right. Because I write this paper in 2018. That time was my first year to know European Martial Arts.
Guy Windsor
Understood. We won't judge you too harshly. Don't worry, what did you think in 2018?
Zeng Yang
I got three characters. The first one I think the Renaissance European Martial Arts consistently viewed combat as a natural automatic goal. So this character or will think yeah, the combat is definitely a goer, all right. But actually, from the Chinese view, in Chinese martial arts history, in Song Dynasty there is a new skill appeared has appeared, this kind of skill, like sort of dancing or martial arts dancing, not all about fighting. Until now, the modern Chinese Wushu. So, you can know a lot of tau do, the form, from the beginning to the end that there are so long skills, so many skills together put together. So, it is Tau lu or routine-like scenes. So, those kinds of thing actually, is not only focused on combat. On the other hand, is focused on the performance to show the skill, to show the power, to show your spirit. So in so I get this, get this result, I think Renaissance European Martial Arts in that time, I think only focus on the combat. Now, I know something different, like Marozzo’s Assalto or Meyer talks about sword dancing. So it's very similar to Ming Dynasty of China, when there's a general called Qi Jiguang. He criticized some performers of Wushu in that age, so it is very similar. So in that time, because my date is not enough. So, right now I am critical of myself.
Guy Windsor
We did say we wouldn't judge you too harshly. Okay, so the first the first characteristic that you saw back then was that it was very naturalistic, but actually, you've come to realize there's more of a performance aspect. Okay. So, what's the second characteristic?
Zeng Yang
The second one, I think it is the gradually incorporate mathematical scientific thought. In the European Martial Arts from the empiricism. Especially Agrippa, tried to use maths to explain all the thing. He shortened the skill like so many guards, the guard’s a tree and to Agrippa, he says, oh there’s just four, no more. So, Meyer, Marozzo, or Vadi, or Fiore, we can see skill trees so big is very similar to Chinese Wushu, China's traditional martial arts. Our Tau lu routines, so many skills. So I think, in this time, even although there's Marozzo, Meyer, those kinds of classical masters, but there's a new thing happening. Agrippa, those masters think about, oh, we want to find the theory principle to describe all the thing.
Guy Windsor
- Have you read Angelo Viggiani, Lo Schermo?
Zeng Yang
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Guy Windsor
- Because he does something similar. He tries to rationalize historical martial arts. He was writing about the same time as Agrippa, but he wrote his book in about 1550. It was published in 1575. Agrippa’s book was first published in 1553. And so yeah, there's there seems to be some sort of a theme towards rationalizing what has become a kind of naturalistic art, rationalizing it and organizing it along these kinds of more modern scientific principles.
Zeng Yang
So this character is also doubtful.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, not everyone agreed. That's sure.
Zeng Yang
So and the third one is very simple. I think Renaissance European Martial Arts still maintained the comprehensiveness. Because it included both a weapon system and a bare hand system, those systems are still composed together, and are not so separated like modern.
Guy Windsor
From the 1550s onwards, we see treatises which are just wrestling or just sword or just whatever. But before that they were all always unified. So sometime in the Renaissance, the idea came that these things should be separated out or represented as different disciplines.
Zeng Yang
Yeah. So there's a trend, I think there's a trend to changing. Renaissance everything's changing is also about the martial arts. So from right now, I watch my paper, the first paper to talk about European Martial Arts, I think, I'm not feeling good about this paper.
Guy Windsor
Okay, okay. My first book came out 20 years ago, this year. And when I look at it now, I don't want anybody to buy it, because it is so out of date. Everything in it from a martial arts perspective is okay. But from a historical perspective, it's mostly rubbish. So don't feel too bad about it. I literally have a book that's sold more than 5000 copies that I know is totally out of date. And I sort of pulled it from production a couple of years ago.
Zeng Yang
Thank you for telling me about it. I think it's very normal for a foreigner. For me, I'm a foreigner about this right. So it's an exploring process. And so it's good to explore a new culture.
Guy Windsor
Yeah. And one would expect early explorations into a new field to be full of like sidetracks and you know, misdirection and what have you is normal. Okay, now, I think most of the people listening will have no idea what Duan Bing is. So could you please tell us what it is and how as according to a master's degree when you compare them how you find Duan Bing comparing to European styles?
Zeng Yang
Okay good. Comparing Duan Bing with HEMA is my is my master thesis. So I have a picture to show.
Guy Windsor
All right. We will put that picture in the show notes. But you tell us what Duan Bing actually is. Most people listening won’t know.
Zeng Yang
Actually, Duan Bing is a Chinese cold weapon combat sport. Duan is short, Bing is steel weapon, so Duan Bing is about short steel weapon combat, not longsword. Sword or short steel stick, or broadsword, Chinese knife so it began to appear around last century, 20th century.
Guy Windsor
So it’s a relatively modern Chinese fencing system.
Zeng Yang
Yeah, yeah because in the 20th century China took a lot of things from Western, so sport is one of them, so Duan Bing is trying just trying to make our traditional Shu become a sport. We have so many weapons here so how to make those weapons skills become a sport, so in that time we have learned so many sports and Japanese fencing.
Guy Windsor
Kendo.
Zeng Yang
Fencing and the Japanese Kendo, those two things are composed into Duan Bing, but after the 20th century, in China, there's a lot of war. And the Duan Bing development actually has stopped at that time, it was suspended. Until the 1960s when the new Chinese government thought OK, we have to put the Duan Bing out. Develop it. So there's a first-time competition in Wuhan. So I wrote a paper about this. But actually, I made a comparison with HEMA. So I think there's three differences. The first one because I talk about the development of background of Duan Bing, in that time Chinese people learn so many things from Western. So Duan Bing is not a traditional thing. Even so, many people say oh Duan Bing is from a traditional skill, but actually not because we set modern rules and use the spongy weapon, a foam weapon. So, now my question, how can say that it is traditional, it is classical because the weapon is changing, right? The idea of Duan Bing is to create a sport, Hema is a rekindled tradition. So it's different. The second way it’s different is, as I have already said, is the weapon. The weapon is very modern. And the rules are modern. You can say, oh, you have drawn blood. People cut you and you lose the bout? Well, no, it's very similar to fencing. Or you know, the score. You cut your opponent; you get one score. So the second is the skill. Just what I said. I said, so many people think that the Duan Bing skill is from the tradition, but nobody talks about manuscript, nobody talks about traditional Chinese weapon skill manuscript. And so that is very different from HEMA. So that's my conclusion.
Guy Windsor
So basically, if I could just summarize to make sure I've understood you correctly, Duan Bing is a modern sport that was developed in the 1920s, was sort of lost during the Chinese civil wars of the 20th century. The Chinese government in the 1960s, reintroduced it. And it's fundamentally a modern sport with influences from sport fencing, influences from kendo and also influences from traditional Chinese martial arts. But it's a modern construct using modern weapons for a modern purpose. So in fact, it has nothing in common with historical martial arts at all. Excellent. Okay.
Zeng Yang
Yes, yes. Very good.
Guy Windsor
All right. Now, Chinese martial arts have become popular in Europe, in the United States, and pretty much everywhere in the world since the 1970s. You know, Bruce Lee has something to do with that. But it wasn't just him. So my question is, what would it take to see European historical martial arts enjoy a similar success in China?
Zeng Yang
When I research European Martial Arts, I always think about this question. Because you said, since the 70s. There are so many reasons why the Chinese Wushu spread to all over the world, like, political factor, right? Because in 1978, it a point in time, because China reform and opening up, and the China and the China has actively engaged with the Western world, and the Western world has also begun to understand this great Eastern country. One the one hand, both the Chinese government and the public consciously spread Chinese martial arts to the outside world. And on the other hand, the western world is also very curious about Chinese martial arts. And secondly, the kung fu movie, right? The kung fu movie spread to Western world and objectively the Western world’s understanding of the martial arts.
Guy Windsor
When I was a kid, my family lived in Botswana, and in the cinema in Gaborone called the Capital Cinema. On Saturday afternoons, they used to have a kid's matinee. And at least a couple of times a month, that was a Hong Kong kung fu movie. Things like Big Boss of Shanghai or whatever. So I used to go to that with my friend, Mark Conyers. And we would, we would go there, and we would just be blown away by the fact that these guys could like they could like leap 20 feet into the air. And they could do triple spinning back kicks while fighting with swords. Absolutely incredible stuff. And then, of course, as we were walking home from the cinema, Mark, and I used to practice the moves that we'd seen on the screen, all the way home. So I think that one of the reasons I am a professional martial artist and have been for the last 25 years or so, is honestly, it's Hong Kong kung fu movies from the 1970s and 80s. So yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right.
Zeng Yang
It’s not my personal conclusion. It's a research conclusion. Also, I think it is immigration. Because in that time, a lot of Chinese people who practice Wushu martial arts immigrate to Europe, North America. Because in 2018, I went to American to teach Chinese Wushu, with a Chinese classmate, he has a club. He has a crush to teach Chinese Wushu. So he immigrated to America in that time. The fourth thing I think is the establishment of the disciplinary system. This way China has established a higher education discipline system for Chinese martial arts for a long time. We are cultivating a large number of practitioners and researchers. So we have a researcher community. So it provided a continuous stream of fresh blood for international dissemination.
Guy Windsor
Mark, can I just say I, it is very unusual for someone speaking English as their second or third language to use words like “dissemination” in conversation. So, I know before we started you were a little bit shy about your spoken English skills, but I’ve got to say, you're doing really well.
Zeng Yang
Thank you. Thank you. I’ll give you an example. My classmate, he went to Europe and has done lots of research about how Chinese Wushu developed in Europe. So, he will make a research conclusion and this conclusion will support the government how to develop, how to spread change. So, this is a national activity. For me, when I graduate, I will go to university to be a teacher and I will continue my research. There is a very important research field called International Wushu. How to make Wushu international. My tutor is focusing on this. Recently we have been doing some corps, to help the international Wushu Federation to develop across the world. So it's not easy to say how European Martial Arts would develop well in China, I think there's a two way you know, yeah.
Guy Windsor
Okay, so firstly, we need to get movies with Historical European Martial Arts presented like kung fu movies, do kung fu, we need to do sword movies doing swords properly, because honestly, the crap that was put in movies these days is just not worth watching. And we also need to get 1000s, millions of Europeans and Americans and Australians and South Americans and whatnot, who are interested in Historical European Martial Arts, to emigrate to China, and open burger restaurants or whatever else and set up their own historical martial arts clubs in China. That would do it. That's not an easy thing to ask.
Zeng Yang
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, although the HEMA or Historical European Martial Arts cannot copy the Chinese way to develop it, itself in China, but I think I can see so many practitioners of HEMA in China. We do some effort, like we have invited the good HEMA practitioners to China to teach. I take part in several courses, in that we invite the Canadian club, the HEMA club, so called the biggest one in the world?
Guy Windsor
Oh, Academie Duello.
Zeng Yang
Yeah, we have a foreign student studying there and when he comes back he will be invited by different clubs to teach Duello’s system.
Guy Windsor
That’s a start.
Zeng Yang
Yeah. Yeah. It's a folk’s way, not the official way.
Guy Windsor
Sure. All right. So that does beg my next question, which is how is it do you think the Chinese establishment take Chinese martial arts so seriously with degree programs and supporting the spread of Wushu in the world and all that sort of thing, but no European or American or other Western government could give a damn about historical martial arts?
Zeng Yang
Yeah, this question is very good, I have to say. I'm a doctoral student. So when I saw this question, from an academic view, back to many years ago, China’s weakness and the western culture invades in a spread to China last century, and that time in the sport field, Western sport is very new for Chinese people in the last century. So we have at that time, can I use that word? Colonised?
Guy Windsor
Yeah.
Zeng Yang
Colonised by western countries. So many people think okay, we have to fight against different fields, war, weapons or culture, sport. Western guys have a sport. So too do we. Obviously, we also have sport, the Wushu is our sport. Yeah, so at that time very interesting thing happened. The people lifted Wushu into national level, we give it a new name, Guoshu. What is Guoshu? It means “national art”. So in that time, in that period, Wushu is also called Guoshu, national art. So the new China is established. Every government very, very emphasized Wushu’s development. Because we think Wushu is good for our health, is good for our national identity and cultural competence. So it's very important.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, it occurs to me that from the 19th century onwards, when the British particularly were sending gunboats up the Yangtze, China did adopt European Martial Arts because you adopted rifles and khaki uniforms, and artillery, and aircraft and battleships and torpedoes. So basically, the current battlefield arts were adopted. So basically, the Chinese army looks an awful lot like the American army or any other army, because rifles and tanks and fighter jets and whatever else. It's just the obsolete traditional stuff that you guys did not adopt.
Zeng Yang
Yes. Actually, before this meeting, I avoided talking about this. I'm afraid of the culture against. I prefer a culture of communication. So that's why the Chinese government is so emphasized on Wushu, on Chinese martial arts, even we established the higher education system. But why the European government or people don't do that, I think you have already said. Because Western people going to other countries see okay, you are taking a sword, you are taking a spear, this so outdated, we have a gun. So, this kind of skill we have already given up. So it's an assumption. We need more academic research. Maybe in the future. I really want to do this because compared to Japan and South Korea we are similar. Karate, and Taekwondo is huge, and their data is very similar to Chinese Wushu. In Japan, the karate is the national art.
Guy Windsor
Yeah. It's a national treasure almost. It's like, the Japanese government will literally, I mean, I've been to a Japanese exhibition of martial arts in Finland long ago. And it was hosted by the Japanese Embassy. They really care.
Zeng Yang
Yes. So Asian countries, maybe we share the same history. So we think the martial arts is only way to fight the Western colonizer. So we emphasise it.
Guy Windsor
So am I right in thinking your life plan is you get your PhD in, in your studies in historical European swordsmanship. And then you go work in university and teach people what you know about Historical European Martial Arts and other things?
Zeng Yang
Yes.
Guy Windsor
Okay, fascinating. I realise I didn't put this question on the list. So you haven’t had time to prepare for it. But your PhD is in the history of European swordsmanship from the 14th to the 17th centuries? That is an enormous field. So what is your fundamental research question that you're planning to answer in your PhD thesis?
Zeng Yang
Yeah, it is hard for me to research it. My outline changed several times.
Guy Windsor
That’s normal with PhDs, I promise you.
Zeng Yang
Yeah. You know, for Chinese scholar, they don't know anything about European Martial Arts like the term or concept or thinking or skill. So, my first target of this thesis, I want to show or translate the terms and the skill. So I focused on several typical masters, Fiore is 15th century, right? And in the 16th century, Meyer, Marozzo, also Vadi, although Vadi is earlier, and then I talk about Agrippa and Thibault. So, I want to research those six masters. Because I have seen so much research about this in the global English, English academic world, like Castle, Hutton, Jacopo Gelli. Their research was a historical perspective. Not talking about skill, a little bit skill, a little bit a terms.
Guy Windsor
They did try to recreate the physical arts themselves.
Zeng Yang
They tried to tell a broad history. As in science history, we have a two way rule. The first one is outside history, is influenced by culture, society, blah, blah, blah. And the other research way is inner research. So only talk about the theory. Like if we were researching maths theory, we'll talk about many theories. So it's an inner search. So, my research is inner research. So I want to show the term, because my research is fundamental about this field. For example, when I talk about the vor, nach, indes, for the Chinese scholar, they don't know about any of this. So I translated these terms but nobody knows this. Nobody understands. So I cannot research a broad history about swords.
Guy Windsor
Yeah. So you have to basically establish for the Chinese reading audience what fundamental concepts and ideas are from Historical European Martial Arts.
Zeng Yang
To teach them and to teach to tell the scholar, the expert.
Guy Windsor
So basically, your PhD is like, an overview of what are Historical European Martial Arts? Where do they come from? What are they like? What do they prioritize, that sort of thing?
Zeng Yang
Yes. And the second chapter, I want to talk about the transmission of this. It is like a conclusion chapter. I want to talk about how actually, it's not new conclusion, for example, from cut to point. And I talk from empiricism to Sciencism or use the mathematics theory. So actually, I know those kinds of conclusions are not new in international.
Guy Windsor
Hang on, hang on. I'm trying to understand you correctly, there's an idea that we used to use cuts and then we move towards the thrust?
Zeng Yang
That’s not so accurate.
Guy Windsor
No, because that didn't happen at all.
Zeng Yang
Yeah, because I have read some research about this. Actually, I just want to make a conclusion. How, how change or transmission this skill or theory, it's not very new research in international academic field, but I think it's new in China. So that's what I want to do.
Guy Windsor
Excellent. Okay, so I have a couple of questions that I asked most of my guests. The first one is what is the best idea you haven't acted on yet?
Zeng Yang
What is “acted on”?
Guy Windsor
What is the best idea you have had that you have not acted on? You have not made real, like you had the idea to do a master's degree in Duan Bing in HEMA, well you've done that, so what is the best idea you've had that you have not made real?
Zeng Yang
Okay, my major is so conservative, so my best target is make my major an artist’s subject or a music subject because those kinds of subjects in China, we research all of the world. You will research so many Western artists, but for martial arts we make art much when we think martial arts is a culture. So, we should research different cultures from all the world. Not now. Now so many Chinese scholars only focus on Chinese Wushu, Chinese martial arts. Even if they make a comparison the conclusion is how Western martial arts can give us any comparing to develop Chinese Wushu? I think it's not very pure research. When we research European Martial Arts, I just talk about European Martial Arts. I won’t talk about how the experience of European Martial arts can give to Chinese Wushu. It’s not so pure. So in the future when I graduate and go to a college, I want to open the courses to teach Western martial arts in a historian culture, write a paper to publish it and make this field important in our major.
Guy Windsor
Wow. That is a bold ambition. So your idea that you haven't acted on yet but you are currently actually acting on it, is you want to make Historical European Martial Arts culturally important in China?
Zeng Yang
Yes, yes.
Guy Windsor
Well, if I can help in any way, just ask. That's a brilliant idea. I'm 100% in favour.
Zeng Yang
Why? Because in China, we have a philosophy subject. Western philosophy is a main part of that. People research Western philosophy. So for Chinese for martial arts, why don't we research Western? So it's very strange. Actually, when I'm reading some research, I know, make martial arts be a subject action is not Chinese people first do it. There's an explorer, explorer of UK early last century. He had an assumption. He said that term, Hoplology. It is the first time to talk about okay, we research martial arts, but China, we have already done it. But our view is not so open. It's conservative. So I want to do it.
Guy Windsor
Okay, so do you actually practice Historical European Martial Arts?
Zeng Yang
I have a sword. Do the Meyer system. And I have the gloves, made in China. The development of Hema in China developed so fast. Right now we can make our weapon, the Chinese made it. Separate the finger, and it sells very well in Europe.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, well, that's the thing. China is the manufacturing powerhouse of the world.
Zeng Yang
I do that. I do the practice because in my major if you say, okay, I want to research Western martial arts, the experts will say, have you practiced it? If you don't practice it, how did you do your research? I practiced for several years. And every weekend, I will go to the club to practice.
Guy Windsor
Is that mostly Meyer?
Zeng Yang
Mostly Meyer, but I also do Fiore, Vadi, and Marozzo, because I want to learn a lot. Not just one fencing system.
Guy Windsor
Excellent. Okay. All right. So my last question, somebody gives you a million dollars or some huge amount of money to spend improving historical martial arts worldwide, how would you spend the money?
Zeng Yang
You mean historical martial arts or European historical martial arts?
Guy Windsor
You can interpret the question however you want.
Zeng Yang
So now historical martial arts, I use this term. Not only European, the first one I think we will we have to make a database. We have to make a Western, Eastern, Japanese.
Guy Windsor
Okay, so like Wiktenauer but with Japanese stuff and Chinese stuff and Korean stuff.
Zeng Yang
All over the world. This is basic because I definitely get so much data and information from the Wiktenauer, so I think it is basic. If there’s no Wiktenauer I have to go to Europe to collect the things. So I think this is the first step, maybe this first step will spend half.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, sure.
Zeng Yang
So and the second step I think we have to establish the research community. Sponsor research community and make Chinese scholar, European scholar, we have a scholar meeting every year.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, okay like an academic conference.
Zeng Yang
Yeah conference. Okay second, do the competition. I think there’s enough competition. But right now in China we have many competitions, but we don't call them HEMA competition. I have to tell you this is very important, maybe for you, we need to create a new term to describe HEMA. We don't use HEMA because before HEMA appeared in China some people normal people have already tried reconstructing the Chinese weapons skill, but they don't have the equipment and they don't do the full speed fighting. And HEMA coming, those guys think oh, it inspired them. Okay, we can do it like this, so we have a Ming Dynasty longsword skill, and a spear skill, there's many manuscripts. So when HEMA came in now we want to make up fighting between Ming Dynasty longsword and German longsword. Right, now, what do we call this competition? We cannot use HEMA as it’s European Martial Arts. So we created a new term, it’s Bing Ji. What is Bing Ji? Bing is steel weapon, Ji is fighting. So the broader meaning of these terms is all the steel weapon fighting, including Olympic fencing or Duan Bing blah blah blah so many things. It’s a top-level term. So the narrow meaning is about Chinalism and HEMA. Because in China, we will make China and a Western fighting, and only use this term, then the Chinese government will support it. Because in the Hubei province, the government of Hubei province’s support, this competition is called the Bing Ji competition. So if you said HEMA competition, maybe nobody cares, but you said Bing Ji is a cultural communication event, the government thinks, oh, very good. So you asked how European Martial Arts could develop in China, we must talk about the cultural communications story, don't say oh, European or China, just like Kendo in China. No government will support it, but we know there's a historical reason. Japanese invade, began a war in China, but when we talk about cultural communication, this event is very good for Chinese people.
Guy Windsor
Right, okay. So you frame it not as bringing foreign martial arts in, you frame it as a cultural communication. That’s clever.
Zeng Yang
So, yeah, so I have, not a club, I am establishing the Sichuan Province Bing Ji Federation. So when I talk about every time we make a competition, we have to talk about cultural communication. Don't say you want to spread the European Martial Arts. No, don't say it. It is very friendly communication. Direct communication in the weapon field, in the fighting field. The thing is Chinese weapons, Western weapons fighting together.
Guy Windsor
Yeah, excellent. All right. Well, if I had the money, I would give it to you, I think. Brilliant. Thank you so much for joining me today, Yang. It's been lovely to get to meet you.
Zeng Yang
Okay, I hope I helped my statement not so essential.
Guy Windsor
No, it was great. It was great. And you didn't say anything rude about anybody, I promise you.
Zeng Yang
Okay, okay. Because yesterday I asked my tutor about this meeting so I said, tutor what should I avoid talking about? You have to avoid talking about political kinds of things.
Guy Windsor
Okay yeah, well we've not discussed politics at all.
Zeng Yang
You know, my real thinking is 100 years ago in the Qin dynasty we closed our doors, so we don't know what happened in the Western world. We always think, oh, we are we are in heaven country in that time. So we wake up to our weakness. So right now, it's a new age, for me, I am a young person and a young scholar, we should open the mind to learn Western or Japanese cultures and to enjoy them and recognize them and make our minds not so narrow. This is my true thinking.
Guy Windsor
Excellent. That's a very good point to finish on. Thank you so much.
Zeng Yang
Thank you. Thank you.
