Episode 193: Kinesiology and Concussions with Jane Strange

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Jane Strange represented Team North America at the 2019 European games in Minsk, and she is a competition medallist at longsword in both open and women's competitions. She is currently teaching and training at Edmonton Historical Martial Arts but is mainly focused on pursuing her degree in kinesiology.

We talk about what kinesiology is and her approach to coaching psychology. Find out what way of training works best for improving someone’s ability with a sword, and how Jane’s approach differs from Guy’s.

We also talk about Jane’s experience at the Minsk European Games. The experience was a bit of a mixed bag, including food poisoning, gear issues, and even a concussion. Jane has taught a seminar on Concussion Awareness and Prevention, having suffered a serious concussion from a car crash. Click here for her slides.

In the episode we discuss preventing and treating concussion – whether there’s any mask that can prevent it, and how we need to change the culture within HEMA to make concussion less likely.

Transcript

Guy Windsor 

Jane Strange represented Team North America at the 2019 European games in Minsk, and she is a competition medallist at longsword in both open and women's competitions. She is currently teaching and training at Edmonton Historical Martial Arts but is mainly focused on pursuing her degree in kinesiology. So without further ado, Jane, welcome to the show.

 

Jane Strange 

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

 

Guy Windsor 

Why it's nice to meet you. Just to orient everybody, whereabouts in the world are you?

 

Jane Strange 

So right now I'm living in Edmonton, which Edmonton Historical Martial Arts is kind of a dead giveaway on that.

 

Guy Windsor 

A lot of people listening will have no idea where Edmonton is.

 

Jane Strange 

Presumably they can Google, but Edmonton is in Alberta, which is a province in the lovely country of Canada.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, yet another Canadian on the show. Okay, have you lived there for very long?

 

Jane Strange 

No, actually, just for the last year, I spent most of the last decade or so in Vancouver, and I'm actually just about to move to San Diego this summer.

 

Guy Windsor 

Exciting news. So why are you moving, if I may ask?

 

Jane Strange 

My husband works for a game studio based out of San Diego, and he's been given a promotion that requires us to move out there. So August 1 we’ll be in California, which is kind of nice, because there's so many great HEMA clubs in Southern California. So I'm really keen to kind of dip my toes into the scene down there.

 

Guy Windsor 

Excellent. So moving for happy reasons. That's what we like. Do you think you'll miss Canada?

 

Jane Strange 

Oh, absolutely. I don't know that I would move to the US, if not for my husband. He is American. But he's been living in Canada for a long time, especially moving to the States during an election year. But California is lovely. It's hard to dislike a place like San Diego. And I think there's going to be a lot of good opportunities for us there. So it's a little bittersweet. It's nice to be back in my hometown. I grew up in Edmonton, but it'll be nice to have a new adventure in San Diego as well.

 

Guy Windsor 

Well, good luck with the move. I've done the moving countries thing several times, it's quite hard. Just out of interest, I can cut this question easily if it's something you don't want to say. What is the most critical thing you're going to take with you?

 

Jane Strange 

Oh, my dogs, I guess, my husband?

 

Guy Windsor 

Yeah, crossing borders with animals is especially tricky, I think.

 

Jane Strange 

I'm going to drive them actually, because my one dog has really severe anxiety and can't do planes, can't do people. So I'm packing dogs into my Mini Cooper. And we're taking a four-day road trip to California.

 

Guy Windsor 

That is a very, very long drive.

 

Jane Strange 

It's going to be beautiful, though. It's right down the Rockies and then cutting through Nevada. So a little bit of desert and then into the coast. So it should be a nice drive. It's just going to be a long drive.

 

Guy Windsor 

Yeah, and you'll have your dog's for company. Yeah, I can see that could be quite a road trip. You might want to like spread it out a little bit longer, and actually see some stuff on the way.

 

Jane Strange 

Again, the problem with my one dog is he's so severely anxious that I can't even take him for walks. So it's very much just going to be like car to motel room to car to motel room. He's not really able to go anywhere where there's people, he's so afraid of people that he just runs back to the car, runs back to the house. It's really sad.

 

Guy Windsor 

What happened to him?

 

Jane Strange 

I don't know. So this is completely irrelevant to HEMA. But I love my puppy. So I'm going to talk about him anyway. We got him when he was 11 weeks old, and we got him from a shelter. And what they told us was that he was kind of the runt of the litter, I guess. So they had to separate him from his littermates and his mother early, which isn't great for his little puppy development. And also that somebody had adopted him before us, but had only lasted a week, because I guess they didn't realize that puppies are crazy and puppies. So I guess this person had just put him in a crate whenever he didn't want to deal with him. So somehow, in his 11 weeks of puppyhood, he developed enough trauma that seeing other people is so terrifying for him that he can only really exist in my house and my yard. And we've spent a lot of time and money on like trainers and behaviourists and medication and stuff to help him out. But I think we've come to a happy medium where he's very happy in the house. He's very happy in the yard. He's just not the kind of dog that's going to go for walks and do things in the outer world.

 

Guy Windsor 

So you have a house lined up in San Diego with a puppy friendly yard, I take it?

 

Jane Strange 

Not yet, but that is the plan. We're going to be going down to San Diego in the next few weeks here to get all of that secured.

 

Guy Windsor 

Wow. That is quite a quite a tricky problem to have. One of the advantages of having dogs is you get to meet lots of people because you go for walks with your dogs and all the dogs meet each other, and they're all super friendly, and then you get to know the owners.

 

Jane Strange 

My other dog, she's super chill, super friendly, we get to do all the dog stuff with her. It's just my little monster man doesn't get to do any of that.

 

Guy Windsor 

Oh bless. Okay, well, thank you for sharing. So how did you get into historical martial arts?

 

Jane Strange 

So, in about 2013, I moved to Vancouver from Edmonton, Vancouver is also in Canada, for those of you who are not aware. And I went to broadcast school. And then I think about six or seven months in I had a journalism project that I needed to do. And we needed to pick a sport, essentially, and like, go find someone do an interview, come back, and that was the project. And I'm not terribly interested in most mainstream sports. So I'd heard from someone in passing that there was a sword fighting school around. So I was like, that sounds pretty interesting to go do an interview about. And because I'd also just moved to the area, I was kind of looking for a sport or a martial art to do already. So I figured I'll go do an interview, take an introductory class, see if I like it. And obviously I did, because I'm still here 10 years later. But yeah, it started with just a journalism project that I had to do for school.

 

Guy Windsor 

I've never yet succeeded in converting a journalist. I mean, I've spoken to plenty of them. But none of them have taken up the noble art as far as I know.

 

Jane Strange 

I was never a journalist. And it was just a journalism class, I ended up as a radio announcer so I was just the On Air person.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, that's an interesting job that most people know absolutely nothing about. So let's have another little detour away for a minute. So what exactly does a radio announcer do? And how do you get a job like that?

 

Jane Strange 

So when you're listening to the radio, and there's the person that comes on, and they're like, this is that song, and let's talk about something random for a couple of minutes before the commercial break. So that's the radio announcer. So that's what I ended up doing. Sometimes you can get into that just by knowing the right people. But there are actually educational programs, I have a diploma in radio arts and entertainment, for example. So there's programs that teach you like how to use a soundboard, how to do proper recordings, what you should talk about what makes for good content, what makes for bad content. And it also covers stuff like journalism, marketing, advertising, writing, stuff like that. So it was it was actually a really good program that I did. But from there, I got a job at a radio station during my second year of that program, and then stayed there for quite some time. And then after I graduated, I got a full time gig at a different radio station. It was a relatively linear pathway. But it's definitely the kind of thing where you tell people you did that and they’re like, wow, I didn't know that was a thing you could actually do.

 

Guy Windsor 

I mean, there are famous radio announcers, with like famous shows and whatnot. So that's the same sort of job fundamentally. I was struggling to think of one.

 

Jane Strange 

Howard Stern would be a good one.

 

Guy Windsor 

That's who I was thinking of. Okay, so basically that job, but just without so much of the controversial stuff, necessarily.

 

Jane Strange 

And more of the music and the current events and stuff like that, if you're working on a more contemporary radio station in a local market.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay. So that makes that means you are an expert in basically, the same sort of thing as podcasts. Because a podcast is basically a radio show, you just tune in whenever you want, because it's downloaded rather than streamed.

 

Jane Strange 

It’s little bit more long form. But yeah, like I've done the interviews, I've done podcasts and stuff.

 

Guy Windsor 

Here's my question. Based on your professional expertise, how can I improve this show?

 

Jane Strange 

Oh, boy.

 

Guy Windsor 

To be fair to the listeners, I didn't know about the radio thing. So this is not on the list of questions that got said. So I'm also just talking a little bit to give you a bit of time to think because I'm nice like that, and you know what to look after your guests, but okay, now you've had a minute.

 

Jane Strange 

I don't know. Okay, so it's been it's been a good minute, since I did radio, like, I think I left radio a good seven, maybe eight years ago at this point. So it's been a minute. I think you do a good job of prep, I think you do a good job of like letting people know what to expect. When we came into the call before we started recording, you are friendly, I think you do a good job of like putting people at ease, although maybe I'm just kind of default at ease because I'm used to this. You’d have to source information from other guests for that. In terms of like feedback on your actual content, I'm going to have to listen to more and get back to you because when I listened to like some previous episodes, I wasn't listening to it under that filter. I was just enjoying it for what it was.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, so if you've enjoyed it for what it was then…

 

Jane Strange 

There was nothing like red flaggy that popped up that I was like, oh, this guy sucks as an interviewer.

 

Guy Windsor 

No technical glitches or anything like that. So it's like, I used to be a cabinet maker, I haven't been a professional cabinet maker for 25 years, something like that. But still, when I go to somebody's house, I notice the furniture. And I notice if it's nice, I noticed if it's crap, I noticed if it's well put together. I mean, on one famous occasion, I went to a friend's house for dinner, and she got a new table from one of those places where you assemble it yourself, I forget which one, and she’d put the legs on wrong. And the table was wobbly. And she didn't realize why. And so I unlaid the table, turned it upside down, put the legs on properly, turned it back up, and she was like, oh, it's not designed wrong. So you know, that sort of background, it gives you an eye for these things. And I assume your background gives you an ear for these things. And if the show hasn't tweaked your radio crap sensor.

 

Jane Strange 

No, I don't think so. I don't look as much at the technical side of things as I do more for the interviewer like, do I care about the questions? Do I think they're relevant? Do they keep the pacing good. For the love of God do they pop their P's into the microphone, stuff like that?

 

Guy Windsor 

Well, I invested in a pop filter. It's good isn’t it?

 

Jane Strange 

It goes a long way.

 

Guy Windsor 

And I have a filter curve that I do to all the audio, which kind of takes down the P’s a little bit and takes down the S’s a little bit. The best thing I ever did for this show was I hired an audio engineer called Gethin Edwards, Gethin, if you're listening. Thank you very much again, and he's actually a sword person, which is how he was on my radar. And he spent about three hours taking me through the technical side of doing the basic sounds engineering. And oh my god, it made all the difference to listenability. And yeah, it was money well spent. Thank you Gethin if you're listening. Okay, so you were training historical fencing in Vancouver. I suppose when you went to Edmonton, you switched to Edmonton Historical Martial Arts straightaway.

 

Jane Strange 

Yeah, so I've kind of had a little bit of a winding path over the last few years. So I started at one school in Vancouver. And then I eventually quit. I started my own school for a little while. And then I started that like a few months before Covid hit.

 

Guy Windsor 

What school is that?

 

Jane Strange 

that I started was Vancouver Historical Fencing. I ran that a little bit over a year, well, informally a couple years, but formally about a year, I suppose. Because with Covid, there were so many restrictions, and sometimes you couldn't train and sometimes you could, and sometimes you could be outdoors, but other times you needed to limit who you were with and like the first year, especially if Covid was just so chaotic, that it was difficult to kind of stay consistent. And then of course, Covid changed a lot of things for a lot of people. And for me, I ended up deciding to quit my career in video games and then move to somewhere else for school and I ended up moving back to Edmonton for school. But because I knew that I wanted to move I didn't really want to invest more into a club that probably wouldn't outlast me. So I thought it would be better to shut it down sooner and then send people off to a different club that would last a lot longer. And then so I had a couple years off of HEMA, between like 2021, 2023 and since I moved to Edmonton last June, I've been with Edmonton Historical Martial Arts, which has been lovely because they're good friends of mine. I've known them for a long time, even before when I was in Vancouver. So it's been nice being able to spend more time with them and have a really welcoming, friendly, healthy club environment again.

 

Guy Windsor 

Excellent. Okay, there's a bunch of subtext there, which we're just going to leave alone for now. All right, I can tell when a guest doesn't want to talk about something. And I try to respect those wishes.

 

Jane Strange 

I actually don't mind talking about it. But I think is for anyone who's listening who doesn't know, so Blood and Iron is the club that I trained with for a long time when I first started in Vancouver, people have probably heard read seen things online about that. I'm open to talking about it, but I don't know that I want to make it the main focus of anything. And yeah, I just think everyone's time is better spent on things that aren't toxic.

 

Guy Windsor 

I think that actually says it all. And honestly, I am of a similar mind when I see stuff online or whatever, I only share things that I think are good. So if something is really terrible, I don't share it with people to warn them about it because that's giving them advertising space.

 

Jane Strange 

Well, that's a thing and like if somebody asks me I have no problem talking about anything and like, I think it's important to let people know about like even just red flags for club environments that maybe aren't as healthy. But I think spending needless time rehashing things that have been hashed out a million times, it's not worth it for anyone involved.

 

Guy Windsor 

Now, you said you worked in the video games industry?

 

Jane Strange 

Yes, I did.

 

Guy Windsor 

A lot of listeners are also gamers. So could you just sort of recap what you did for the games industry?

 

Jane Strange 

I'm not actually a game developer, I spent more time in terms of operations. So I did a lot of business, finance, HR, studio management, that kind of thing when I worked in games. My husband is a software engineer for Ashes of Creation, which is made by Intrepid Studios. It's not out yet, but in a few years, it's going to be a very cool MMO. But that's how I met him. And I worked at a studio called Offworld Industries for a while. They make a military simulation game called Squad that I think at least a few people I've met in HEMA have played before, so that's kind of fun.

 

Guy Windsor 

Excellent, so you're more on the admin side of things.

 

Jane Strange 

Yeah. A little bit more on the business side of things, for sure.

 

Guy Windsor 

So you moved to Edmonton for education you said, so that's your degree in kinesiology?

 

Jane Strange 

That's what I'm working on right now.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, so just for the sake of the listener, who doesn't want to Google, what is kinesiology?

 

Jane Strange 

So kinesiology is essentially the science of like, how the body moves, human movement. So it's got a lot to do with sports and exercise science. So for me, specifically, I'm doing it because I have been coaching HEMA for a long time, I've coached other sports before, and I've always kind of been interested in just like coaching, skill acquisition, performance, movement, health, kind of that realm. So now that I have the financial ability to not have to work all the time, and my husband's lovely enough to support me, I'm able to kind of pursue that interest a little bit more and ideally, turn it into a career down the line. But career-wise, I've also taken a winding path.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, so your goal with your kinesiology degree is, when you get it. You've been there for a year?

 

Jane Strange 

I'm going into the third year now.

 

Guy Windsor 

Will you be able to study while you're in San Diego?

 

Jane Strange 

Yeah, I did my first year online through an online university in Canada, I’m at the University of Alberta now, but I think, because we found out that we would be moving after transfer application deadlines had already passed, I'm kind of debating whether I take a year off now or whether I go back to online university. Because it's going to take me a little bit to get status in the United States so that I can work or do studies outside of a Canadian online university. So, still figuring that out. But either way, I do intend to continue with my education.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay. So you're studying human movement, how we learn motor patterns, that kind of stuff?

 

Jane Strange 

Yeah. And a lot of like anatomy, physiology. More like hard science stuff as well.

 

Guy Windsor 

What is the most useful thing you've come across so far?

 

Jane Strange 

In terms of just broad course titles, sports psychology, I think every single coach should at least read a couple of books, please, for the love of God read coaching books about sports psychology. I think one of the other big things, and we're going to get real nerdy for a second. I'm sure that you've kind of seen that in the HEMA community now, there's a lot more coaches that are doing what's called ecological approaches to coaching or constraints lead approaches and kind of games based teaching methods. And I love that kind of thing because scientifically, it's actually backed that we learned better from solving a problem repeatedly not just doing reps of the same thing. So solving the problem, even if you're doing it a little bit differently every time, leads to much faster and much more effective movement solutions. So in something like HEMA, playing a game to get somebody to do something, instead of just having someone do 100 reps of the same exact movement, trying to get it the exact same every time is a much better use of your coaching and learning time. So doing things that solve problems, I think would be the number one takeaway that everyone should try to do.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, could you give us a practical example from a sword perspective?

 

Jane Strange 

Sure. So if we just think about something really basic, like a direct attack, like say you're starting from your right shoulder, you're throwing a direct attack for their head. Whether you're attacking or defending that you can attack or defend however you like, in whatever system. There's two different ways basically, that you can go about learning it or teaching it and the first one is basically just take your hands, move them through this movement, do it as many times as you can, and you know that your defender is always going to defend because you're throwing that cut and you're trying to learn to do the cut. In a more ecological approach, what would happen is, if I were the attacker, I have that one cut that I can do, we have something called the direct attack game where I make that cut. And my opponent, if they're fast enough, can defend. If they're not fast enough, I end up hitting them. So I win if I've hit them, and they win if they've successfully defended themselves. So turning it into more of like, a game where like both parties can actually win, it's less choreographed, that is a far more useful application. If that makes sense.

 

Guy Windsor 

I have a system for every kind of drill. So whatever drill it is, like the action where you’ve got one attack and one defence. Any drill can be done for choreography. So usually, with beginners, you teach them the basic choreography first, like this is the kind of attack you want to be doing, this is the kind of offense you need to do, have a little go at that. As soon as the choreography is sort of basically understood, one person is coaching the other. So either the attacker is coaching the defender to defend in time, so they moderate the intensity of the attack so that the defendant gets it some of the time and not the rest of the time. So they have the ultimate rate of failure going on. Or of course, the defender can be training the attacker, which is harder to set up. But it can be done, where the better the attack is, the more likely it is to get through. So that's coaching. And then you can compete on the same drill where the attack against the attack if they're quick enough, and the defender gets the defence if they're quick enough, and they just compete on it. So basically, what you're describing is like the third level of that drill.

 

Jane Strange 

What I found, actually with beginners, and people who it's their first time holding a sword, jumping straight to that is actually far more useful and improves their development drastically.

 

Guy Windsor 

But you wouldn't necessarily do that with steel longswords and a fencing mask, I hope.

 

Jane Strange 

We're fortunate that we have a lot of loaner gear at our club. But for those that we don't, and for the first couple of classes, you can do the same thing with boffer, like give them lacrosse gloves and a fencing mask, and you can use foam swords, and you can get a lot done with that. And then they're actually learning about if I'm actually cutting in earnest, and somebody's trying to defend themselves, am I winning or not? And then you're not bringing in artificialities, where maybe somebody who's coaching isn't as experienced as a coach, and maybe they defend a little differently when they're doing a choreographed drill versus a competitive game. So there's that too. And this way both parties get to learn and engage with the content at the same time and learn as much as they can from each other. So skill level is important. But that's also why we change partners so often.

 

Guy Windsor 

I’m a big fan of that. In my classes, the standard is every time we stop and reset, we change partners. So three or four minutes with a partner, then you move.

 

Jane Strange 

Because you're getting people with different body types, different heights, with different skill levels. Yeah, I think that variation is really important.

 

Guy Windsor 

Yeah, okay. Yeah, you're making me think about stuff, which is slowing down my questioning.

 

Jane Strange 

That’s OK. Just let it cook a little bit.

 

Guy Windsor 

I am particularly interested in teaching people to move without injuring themselves.

 

Jane Strange 

Yes, that's very important. And I firmly agree.

 

Guy Windsor 

A lot of people they have very unhealthy job lifestyles, they spend a lot of time sitting at a computer, whatever. And if they just go from office straight to the game we just described, the chances of tweaking their back or pulling a muscle or something like that is relatively high. How has your study affected how you warm up a class.

 

Jane Strange 

So actually, in terms of warmup we just spar for like the first 15 minutes of class that being said, Everyone spars at a level that they're comfortable with, so if they're a little stiff that day, they're going to do some really easy, super chill matches. If they don't want to gear up fully, they can do either a lighter weapon, they can do boffer sparring, they can do whatever they want. But the first 15 minutes of classes for us is typically just jumping straight into some kind of sparring scenario, and people can ramp up as they feel they need on a given day. For people who have injuries or who have like specific things we definitely encourage and welcome them doing a little bit of like individual stuff moving around a bit first, stretching a little bit. But at the end of the day, I think because we're teaching an adult class people tend to know what their bodies need.

 

Guy Windsor 

Really? That has not been my experience.

 

Jane Strange 

That might just be a difference in culture, whether it's between like Canada and the UK or maybe it's a difference in just like culture between the clubs.

 

Guy Windsor 

I teach all over the place. America and Finland and Germany and Singapore and New Zealand or wherever else. And in my experience, the overwhelming majority of my adult students don't have what I would say, at least to start with, they don't have a reasonable degree of body awareness.

 

Jane Strange 

Yes, I agree. They don't have that body awareness, they don't have that fitness. But if you just let them move their bodies in a way that they feel comfortable moving their bodies, chances are, they're not going to do something that's going to injure themselves, their body is very good at protecting itself. And a lot of times, they don't have the action capacity yet to do these really big movements, or these really hard swings, because their body hasn't done it so they don't know how so they can't do it. So they're not going to kill themselves doing it because their body is going to protect them most of the time.

 

Guy Windsor 

But then how do you systematically develop their ability to do for instance, the longer movements?

 

Jane Strange 

So if it comes to fitness, that's a very different question than it is from just like, HEMA, specifically and they obviously overlap. But as a HEMA coach, I'm not really interested in developing people's fitness past, like what we do in class. If somebody wants extra help with general fitness, I'm happy to help them with that, too. But, again, like I said, we start with sparring for new people, typically, that sparring is pretty low key, but we develop that action capacity over time, your body adapts pretty quickly. Once you do a couple of weeks of HEMA, you're going to find that you do a lot better than you did in your first like day of HEMA. And people build physical literacy by doing something, and not by doing something with just rote repetition, they build physical literacy by solving a problem with their body. So again, it comes back to that problem solving and just letting people explore their own physical space a little bit.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, do you guys do much in the way of wrestling? Throws?

 

Jane Strange 

No, that actually would be an exception, we only really do grappling at the sword standing up, we don't really do takedowns we don't really do wrestling. That would be an area where like, I think there would be a lot more required in terms of physical fitness, physical literacy, like injury prevention management.

 

Guy Windsor 

Yeah. And I'm guessing you don't do rapier either.

 

Jane Strange 

I personally am not able to do rapier, I think there's a couple of people in the club that do but it's not my area of expertise by any means.

 

Guy Windsor 

Well, because what I'm thinking of is the fundamental mechanics of the longsword systems that we have are relatively conservative. And they don't require very large motions, they don't require much in the way of specific skill set. Whereas rapier, for instance, if you're going to do a full size Capoferro lunge, you absolutely have to condition your body to that relatively slowly.

 

Jane Strange 

But you're never going to have someone doing that day one. They are going to build up to it over time.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay. But it just strikes me that the approach that you're describing suits pure longsword without the grappling pretty well. It wouldn't necessarily suit with the grappling and it wouldn't necessarily suit with the rapier. Because what you need to do is you need to train up the lunge in very, very carefully because that is where for example, like sport fencers routinely destroy their competition chances and their careers. Screwing up their cartilage or tearing a ligament or twisting a knee or something.

 

Jane Strange 

For sure. And rapier, again, is not something that I have extensive training in or feel comfortable teaching myself. But that being said, I can do an explosive lunge with the best of them. And I agree that that's not something I would have someone doing day one, and they absolutely need to be building up to that. But I do think that there would be a way to do that where it's not just rote repetition of lunges.

 

Guy Windsor 

Rote repetition of lunges is not a particularly useful exercise. Agreed.

 

Jane Strange 

Yeah. Okay. So we're on the same page there, perfect.

 

Guy Windsor 

But for example, with in a style that requires lunges, I would be hesitant to just to throw people straight into free fencing straight away. Because if they lunge incorrectly, well, I've seen not in my class, but I've seen in other clubs, like common injuries when people lunging correctly when they're trying to do regular free fencing because they haven't been taught how to move correctly yet.

 

Jane Strange 

When you're teaching someone to move, I don't think there's anything wrong with showing someone how to do it and having them do it a couple times. But I think that the translation between that and then actual fencing is vast, so creating games where like people start with lunges and they start with smaller ones and they realize like what their action capacity is in terms of distance would be really valuable.

 

Guy Windsor 

I have what we call the buckler game where one of you has a buckler, one of you has whatever sword or spear anything else you poke with. And it's like mitts with boxing. So the buckler appears, you hit it, the buckler appears you hit it, the buckler is not there, you don't hit it. There's constant motion. So the target appears, bam, off you go. And that can be done relatively early. Because part of it is if the targets too far away, you're not supposed to go for it.

 

Jane Strange 

And so that's when people learn like this is how far I can go right now. No point stepping, if I can't make it that far anyway.

 

Guy Windsor 

You said you can't do rapier. Why not?

 

Jane Strange 

I have a variety of injuries that basically leads me to do exclusively longsword, but I'm just about to take up smallsword. So that should be fun. But I have tendonitis in both of my arms. So holding a rapier outstretched in front of me is very, very difficult. And it just ends up with me getting hurt to the point where I can't do any weapons. So rapier specifically is very difficult.

 

Guy Windsor 

What are you doing about the tendonitis?

 

Jane Strange 

I've done a lot of physiotherapy, I've got stretching exercises and different things that I do to kind of maintain it. But what I found is that like, a, I'm a little bit of a basic bitch, I don't really care about other weapons to longsword that much to be honest. But when I when I have attempted them, I've just found that it causes pain to the point where it's not worth it for me to kind of try building up the muscles improving to the point where it would be worth it to me to try it because I just don't care that much.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, so the tendonitis doesn't bother you with longsword?

 

Jane Strange 

Very rarely, but because you're supported by both arms and it's not outstretched fully as often it's not quite as bad. So I still have to manage it, just not to the same extent that I would with a single hand weapon that has a lot more weight on one arm.

 

Guy Windsor 

Yeah, I mean, when I was in my 20s, my tendonitis was so bad I actually had to stop doing swords for a bit. Quite a while, in fact, that the doctors couldn't do anything. But a kung fu instructor friend of mine, fixed my wrists in about 20 minutes with this hideous massage, just hideous. And that helped, but it didn't obviously, fix it. What fixed it was teaching me how to do the massage myself and teaching me a couple of basic exercises, that when I keep up my forearm conditioning, I never have tendinitis, no matter what I do. And if I don't do it for a couple of weeks, my just typing or training or anything else, my wrist start to get a bit owy so I go, oh, shit. And I'm like, got to do my exercises. So it's been my experience that this condition can be mitigated to the point where it just requires basic maintenance every now and then.

 

Jane Strange 

That's where I'm at. I do my maintenance, I do my stretching and my massage. And it almost never bothers me for longsword or the things that I want to be doing. And smallsword I'm pretty keen on because it's light enough that it doesn't actually mess with any of that. So I'm kind of looking forward to digging into smallsword.

 

Guy Windsor 

I would guess also, there are nuances to how you're holding the sword that's making it worse.

 

Jane Strange 

Presumably, I'm just not doing it well, because I'm not comfortable with it. I've trained with people who are very good at rapier and they don't seem to see anything wrong with it. But again, it's been a long time, I can't really be bothered. Diagnosing the various form issues for me is like I could just be training something else instead and having more fun.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, fair enough. So, you said you when you finish your kinesiology degree, you're going to graduate, the idea is to do something professional with it. So, what did you have in mind?

 

Jane Strange 

There are various graduate and professional programs that I'm interested in right now. Medicine would be one, physiotherapy would be another option. You can also like, do personal training and stuff like that with just a Kinesiology degree, at least in Canada. So something to do with that. Medicine I thought it would be the top pick, but that's ambitious.

 

Guy Windsor 

Why so?

 

Jane Strange 

I'm not sure if you're aware of how it works in Canada and the United States, but it's an incredibly competitive process to get into medical school. And then it's another four years of medical school and then several years of residency on top of that, so it's a very long term goal.

 

Guy Windsor 

Sure, but most people are going into it with an unrelated Degree or no degree at all, I would assume.

 

Jane Strange 

It kind of depends on the medical school, but yeah, different ones have different admissions requirements.

 

Guy Windsor 

If you're there with a with a really good degree in kinesiology, that would probably help a lot.

 

Jane Strange 

Yes, I don't want to get too much into the medical school application process in Canada, but as a frame of reference. Canada uses a 4.0 GPA system for the most part. So 4.0 would be considered like the highest possible grade point average that you can have for an undergraduate degree. People start freaking out in Canada when they dip below a 3.9. Because it's incredibly competitive. And like, even the difference between a 3.94 and a 3.98 can affect your chances of getting in. It's very, very competitive here. And then it's not just that you also have to write examinations, like the MCAT, you also have to have good like extracurricular activities or life kind of circumstance to be able to get in.

 

Guy Windsor 

I'm just of the opinion that if it's something you want to do, you should just go ahead and do it.

 

Jane Strange 

That's what I'm doing. That's why I'm planning on finishing my degree at this point, when I'm 31, or 32, and then applying for medical school, and I wouldn't be done medical school into my 40s. So I'm perfectly fine with taking a long time to do it. It's just a very intense process on this side of the pond.

 

Guy Windsor 

Yeah, it reminds me of a friend of mine at school, who was never going to get the grades to get into vet school. Just on the end of high school exams that we do here. And so instead, she went and got a degree in zoology and biology. And then applied to vet school with a solid degree in zoology and biology, which kind of trumps all the high school leavers.

 

Jane Strange 

It does. Yeah, but here, you have to have an undergraduate degree to apply for professional programs anyway. We don't have many professional programs where you can apply straight out of high school.

 

Guy Windsor 

So you can't just apply to be a doctor when you're 18.

 

Jane Strange 

No. In no way has that happened here. No, you don't get to do that straight out of high school.

 

Guy Windsor 

It’s standard in the UK. I mean, people go to study medicine at 18.

 

Jane Strange 

A lot of people from Canada, if they find the process here isn't working for them, they actually apply to the UK or Ireland or Australia for medical school.

 

Guy Windsor 

Honestly, the doctors here just fine.

 

Jane Strange 

I’m sure. It's very much just a difference in process, I'm sure outcome wise, it's not that different. It's just the process here is very, very different compared to what it is over there.

 

Guy Windsor 

So if you decide not to be a doctor, then I'm not getting a sense that you want to use it to become a better professional historical martial arts instructor.

 

Jane Strange 

Well, half the reason I am doing this specific degree is because I like coaching and I care about it. If you mean, like, professionally becoming a historical martial arts instructor, maybe it kind of depends how things go. I did run a school for a little bit. I would be open to doing that again, but we're going to see how this goes first, I think, and that would be more of a plan B.

 

Guy Windsor 

All right. Fair enough. Either doctor or historical martial arts instructor.

 

Jane Strange 

I mean, that's the nice thing. I grew up without a lot of financial means. So that's kind of why I went into radio school. It's because I wanted something that wouldn't put me into extreme debt, but that I still thought would be like a fun and engaging and meaningful career for me. And now getting to a point in my life, where I'm very financially stable, my husband supports me through school right now. I never thought I would have that opportunity. So I'm so grateful. And it's like it. I think about it all the time how fortunate I am to be in that kind of a position. So if I want, I could just be a professional HEMA instructor, and my husband would be totally chill with that. And I never thought I would get to that point in my life. But it's very cool to be here.

 

Guy Windsor 

I mean, I was a professional historical martial arts instructor before I even met my wife. So she has never had any choice in the matter.

 

Jane Strange 

My husband is wonderful. He's the best HEMA husband, whenever I run a tournament, he's out. He's volunteering, like a full 12-hour day for the event. He's wonderful.

 

Guy Windsor 

Does he fence himself?

 

Jane Strange 

He does not he literally does not care about it past the fact that I do it.

 

Guy Windsor 

That's like my wife. She has no interest in swords whatsoever. But she's entirely happy to support me to the absolute hilt in whatever I want to do.

 

Jane Strange 

Precisely. Yeah, that's wonderful.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, so you represented North America at the Minsk European Games. You're not the first guest on the show to have done so. And I'll have to put in a note in the show notes about which of the other episodes we discussed this on. Honestly, I should have looked that up before today. But it's been a bit of a busy day. I failed to do so. So what was it like for you? How did you get onto the team and what was it like going there?

 

Jane Strange 

So team North America I think had 10 spots and our delegates were Mike Edelson, Jake Norwood and Shawn Franklin, I think hopped on later. So they were the ones that kind of got to decide who would go. They wanted to choose people who they thought would have a really good chance of winning. But they also wanted to make sure that women in HEMA were represented because there unfortunately wasn't a women's tournament in Minsk, which is an organisational decision. But that wasn't mine. So it is what it is. But they wanted to make sure that there was good representation as well. So because I've done quite well in open tournaments before, I think I got chosen for that. Also, because I'd been traveling quite a bit at the time, internationally and doing tournaments. I was a good fit in general. But it was very cool to go and be a part of that. The level of competition was really high. All of my fights were really fun, really engaging and competitive. Of course, when you get some of the best fencers in the world all meeting, a good chunk of those people are my friends. So it was really nice to be able to catch up with them in that scenario as well. For me, personally, I think it was kind of a mixed bag of a trip. I really, really enjoyed touring around Minsk, seeing the city. Belarus is not a place I probably ever would have visited outside of that invitation. So that was a great opportunity. Going around and seeing like the other European Games stuff that was happening was really cool. Like the mascot was so cute for the game. It was this little fox named Lessig and I loved him. He came out to the tournament one day, and he was so cute. Like I said, there were great fights, it was really great to catch up with a lot of friends. The event organization was a little bit chaotic. So that wasn't necessarily the easiest thing. But it's not uncommon for HEMA events to be a little chaotic. So it is what it is. My training leading up to the event was actually pretty stressful because I quit Blood and Iron, two or three months before I was supposed to leave. And that was a whole big thing with a lot of drama. And then I didn't really have anyone to train with because they had told people at the club that if they found out that they were training with me, then they'd be kicked out of the club. And it was a whole thing. So I was really fortunate that a few people actually were willing to just call out their crap, come and train with me anyway. I was able to get some sessions and it just wasn't as much training as I would have liked. I ended up getting a concussion during my last match, which really sucked. It was nice because it was during my last match, so I didn't miss too much. But I was actually supposed to have an exhibition match against Elena Muzurina, I think the next day.

 

Guy Windsor 

She's been on the show.

 

Jane Strange 

Oh, you talked to her? Oh, she's lovely. Yeah, we were supposed to have an exhibition match. But I had to send someone else in my place because I obviously was not fighting with a concussion. And then I also got food poisoning on my way home from Minsk. And as you can imagine, from Minsk to Vancouver, it's a very long flight to have food poisoning.

 

Guy Windsor 

Yeah, that is awkward.

 

Jane Strange 

It was deeply uncomfortable the entire time.

 

Guy Windsor 

I can imagine.

 

Jane Strange 

So bit of a mixed bag, but for the most part, I came away from it as a positive experience. And I enjoyed my time over there.

 

Guy Windsor 

How did you do in the tournament, if you don't mind my asking?

 

Jane Strange 

I didn't go in there with high hopes just because of the calibre of the talent in the field at the time. I think I won two of my matches, and I lost two of my matches. Not bad. It wasn't an amazing performance. But considering the talent that was there, like I wasn't expecting to really make it terribly far.

 

Guy Windsor 

Also, having just left your club in the last few months of your training being kind of a bit ad hoc.

 

Jane Strange 

It wasn't really ideal. Oh, I forgot, so one of the organisation rules that they had was that everybody had to have a jacket and fencing pants, so the jacket had to be 350N with the label and pants had to be 800N with the label, and I had an old SPES jacket that didn't have the label on it. So I had to buy a new jacket and I had to buy new pants. So I bought these god awful heavy fencing pants that were 800N rated and they sucked. And then the jacket that I ordered though to replace mine, it literally arrived the day that I got on the plane to leave Minsk. So I didn't have it. So Brittany Reeves, she's in Arizona now.

 

Guy Windsor 

She's been on the show, too. Twice.

 

Jane Strange 

Yeah, so she was supposed to be in Minsk. But she ended up having immigration issues with the States so she had to stay in America. But she sent her jacket with her husband, Kyle, so I wore Brittany's and she's a little bit smaller than I am. Across the chest, it was very tight. So breathing was a little bit of a struggle. But then I got there. And I see people that have like their old-as-fuck HEMA jackets from like the early 2010s. No labels in sight. And I'm like, I do you know how much money I spent on all this gear to meet your requirements and you're not even enforcing it at gear check.

 

Guy Windsor 

Yeah, that's very characteristic of the region.

 

Jane Strange 

But I wasn't the only one that spent a lot of money on gear that didn't need to be spent on gear.

 

Guy Windsor 

I’m curious, why do you think they required a higher puncture resistance to trousers than they do to the jacket?

 

Jane Strange 

I don't even want to fathom a guess. I have no rational explanation for that.

 

Guy Windsor 

Yeah, it seems an odd choice. It'd be like 800 Newtons all round, fine. I can see that argument or 300 Newtons all round, I can see that argument. I see document for, like, more than double for the legs than for the torso where you're actually getting most of the hits.

 

Jane Strange 

Well, that's what I'm saying. And then people from other delegations, like the Scandinavian people, they all just showed up with whatever they already had. And they were like, you guys didn't have to buy anything. And we're like, but the rules said that we did. So we did buy things. So I immediately sold the 800N pants because I didn't want them and someone else could benefit.

 

Guy Windsor 

All in all, an interesting experience.

 

Jane Strange 

Interesting is a great way to put it. Mostly positive.

 

Guy Windsor 

Do you think it improved your fencing at all?

 

Jane Strange 

I don't know that any one tournament can typically improve my fencing on its own. At that point, I would say yes, just in terms of pure exposure to other regions that I hadn't really seen before. But in the year leading up to that, I'd competed in the Netherlands, I’d competed in Sweden, I’d competed in Slovakia, even England. So I'd kind of been around a lot of the different regions. But I think in terms of value in terms of experience from that tournament, it would really just be more like, I'd never really encountered the Italian scene before, or the Greek scene or like people from other places that I had never competed. So I think that actually had a lot of value for me.

 

Guy Windsor 

Yeah, it would do. Now, you said you got a concussion in your last bout? How did that happen?

 

Jane Strange 

That one was actually just kind of an unfortunate accident where I missed a parry that I should have made. But the position that we were both in, I was moving in one direction, and he kind of moved past me off to the side. And so when he got me, he kind of just got me just to the side, maybe a little bit on the back of my head. So there was just a lot of rotational movement there that ended up doing it. But I don't think he was hitting too hard. And I think it was just like poor placement on both of our parts.

 

Guy Windsor 

Now, this is a really useful point. This sort of thing can happen when both people are behaving reasonably. I just wanted to highlight that just for the non-specialist listener, because we have this idea that concussion is what happens when you get hit in the head really hard. You don't actually have to get hit that hard. It just has to be in the wrong spot.

 

Jane Strange 

Or in the wrong way. Or sometimes it's a little bit too hard. Or sometimes you just happen to run into a point, like who hasn't accidentally been stabbed in the face before? Because they're stupid and walked into it.

 

Guy Windsor 

You can't fence for very long before that happens at least once.

 

Jane Strange 

Yeah, exactly.

 

Guy Windsor 

Now, you did recently teach a seminar on Concussion Awareness and Prevention at SoCal Swordfight, which is actually how you came to my attention for the podcast. Because somebody mentioned that you'd been there teaching this thing. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Maybe I should get her on the show. And so I found you. So that's how you that's how you popped up on my radar. Now, just for the benefit of the listener, I should read your class blurb, which will lead me into the question. It says this class is applicable to everybody with a brain. Now, that's a really interesting distinction. Because not every fencer I've met seems to have one. Whether you are a coach or student, casual or highly competitive, the fact remains that HEMA is a pursuit where we hit each other on the head on purpose. Eventually, and inevitably, those bonks will lead to something more serious, and we should all be aware of what to look out for, and how to support each other through it. Okay, so why do you think concussion, or at least something more serious, is inevitable?

 

Jane Strange 

So I think this has a little bit of a caveat, where I think a lot of people think concussions are like, only when you blackout or only when something terrible happens to you. And that's not the case. And sometimes people will say there's a minor concussion. There's no such thing as a minor concussion. A concussion is just a minor traumatic brain injury. That being said, your brain is still being injured. The reason that I think they ended up being relatively inevitable in HEMA is again, we just talked about the fact that like accidents happen, sometimes you end up in a position where you're not ready to be hit. Sometimes you end up in a position shouldn't, where maybe you accidentally turn and they happen to go out to the side and you get clonked on the side or the back of the head somewhere you weren't expecting. We're using these big metal bars, whether it's rapier, longsword, or what have you to hit each other, often in the head. And I think that at some point, if you end up doing it long enough, you're going to take a shot to the head that is, at the very least a little bit uncomfortable, if not concussive or sub concussive. It's kind of just the nature of the game.

 

Guy Windsor 

And so what can we do to prevent it?

 

Jane Strange 

So, oh, man, I could talk about concussions all day, every day. So, in terms of prevention, there's a lot of different things that we can do. We've recently gotten the new, I don't know if I can say it right, but Wukusi masks, the ones with the big hardshell protection all the way over the back. Those are new, and a lot of people are like, wow, this is going to stop concussions, and there is no mask on earth that will ever stop a concussion. American football players still get concussions, and they have some of the best technology available to them. So the mask isn't going to save you. It certainly will help in terms of dispersing force and stuff. But at a base level, having a mask that fits you and is in good condition is a great preventative tool.

 

Guy Windsor 

Also, we should say that, because you're wearing a mask, people are free to hit you in the head.

 

Jane Strange 

Well, I'm also wearing a mask so that my eyes don't get stabbed out. And also, my face is pretty.

 

Guy Windsor 

Yeah, sure. But there are plenty of people training weapons-based martial arts who never use masks at all. For example, anyone doing Wushu or Kobudo. There are dozens and dozens of non-European-based martial arts, where the fencing mask just aren't really a thing. So one issue of wearing any kind of protection is that people are then free to hit it. I'm not advocating for fencing without masks all the time, by the way.

 

Jane Strange 

I agree, the more gear you have, the more people feel like they can hit you. That's a stance I can get on board with. That being said, though, I think objectively, it is safer to use a mask than it is to not use a mask.

 

Guy Windsor 

If you get hit in the head, yeah.

 

Jane Strange 

Even if you don't get hit in the head, sometimes accidents happen. Like I said, it's not just about the concussions, it's also just about lacerations on your scalp, bruising, your eyes are important.

 

Guy Windsor 

But I am very much of the opinion that that things based on a fencing mask are not actually fit for longsword free play. I don't think that's the right tool for the job at all. We need things which are based on either medieval style helmets with modified face protection, so you can actually thrust to the face safely. Or things like the Terry Tyndall design mask - much, much better.

 

Jane Strange 

In terms of equipment, I definitely think that there's a lot that can be done to improve what we currently have. There are for sure, better designs we can use than just like a standard fencing mask. That being said, that's where we're at, in the community right now. That's what we use. And so kind of encouraging people to check their mesh all the time, make sure they're not using an old mask, make sure they have a mask that actually fits them. I think for where we are at as a community right now, those are the big things that we can do. And then there's already people trying to develop better masks for us and better helmets so that we can have better protection. But I would rather spend my time on what we have now and making sure people can maintain and take care of themselves with that, if that makes sense.

 

Guy Windsor 

Oh, sure. Yeah, it's a pragmatic rather than idealistic approach.

 

Jane Strange 

Yeah. I'm all for the ideals. I'd love to have a mask that would like prevent a lot more concussions than we have. But that's not the reality of what we're dealing with right now. But we are dealing with concussions right now.

 

Guy Windsor 

Sure, I mean, these, like better mask designs have been around for getting on for 20 years now.

 

Jane Strange 

But none of them have taken off to the point where they're being used in a widespread way.

 

Guy Windsor 

It depends where you go.

 

Jane Strange 

I suppose it depends on the region, but you walk into your average tournament, the majority of people are going to be using a standard fencing mask.

 

Guy Windsor 

Which is insane. I wouldn't allow them. Honestly. I have this thing in my salle in Helsinki, we took a standard fencing mask and we put it on the pell and we attacked it with medieval weapons. And it fails catastrophically. As you would expect, right. And so when beginners are putting on it, I mean, we do use fencing masks there, but not for the really serious stuff. But when beginners put on a fencing mask for the first time, before they do that, we show them what happens when a fencing mask is attacked by medieval weaponry, as this crushed mask is there, this will not protect you against actual assault, it will only protect you against very modified, very moderated strikes from a cooperative partner who is not trying to hurt you. And it will mitigate some injuries. And we get that message across as hard as possible. Because I have seen it is people put on the Darth Vader tournament gear. And they feel like they're wearing armour when they're not.

 

Jane Strange 

Yes, that right there is actually one of the biggest things I think we can do for prevention, too, is just building a culture where that's not the vibe.

 

Guy Windsor 

So how do we do that?

 

Jane Strange 

That's the kind of thing that really does start at a club level, and then it infiltrates down to tournaments. But having good club culture where you're constantly talking about levels of force, you're constantly talking about levels of consent, and how hard people want to go all the time. Maybe you create games or drills where like you're not always targeting the head repeatedly, you're targeting maybe the chest or other areas, just avoiding that repetitive kind of hitting to the head, making sure that all of your instructors, all of your coaches know what concussions look like know the signs and symptoms and like I'm not sure about other countries, but in Canada, we have tons of free resources for coaches through the national coaching body. And those include webinars that you can take to learn about concussions to learn what to look for to learn when you should bench someone.

 

Guy Windsor 

Where can people find that? Because I'm assuming that you can access that from anywhere?

 

Jane Strange 

You can. I have a list of resources. I'll send it along to you afterwards. So you can post it up after the podcast.

 

Guy Windsor 

Thank you very much indeed, good.

 

Jane Strange 

Presumably, other countries have this too. But I'm mainly familiar with the Canadian resources. But coaches should be going and finding and taking courses that are like first aid related, but specifically based on concussions as well.

 

Guy Windsor 

What do you think of the idea of neck strengthening exercises to protect the head?

 

Jane Strange 

There is actually evidence that shows that having a stronger neck can help to reduce the effects of concussions and concussion in general. And that's just because a lot of concussions are actually as a result of like either whiplash or rotational force applied to the head. Because a concussion is because your brain is kind of bouncing around in its little cavity. So when it hits the sides more from this rotational acceleration, that's what causes the concussion. So strengthening your neck to kind of help brace and like reduce that level of force has been shown to be helpful. One interesting thing, I was talking to Rachel VanDyke from SoCal Swords a little while ago, she's also doing some kinesiology courses. She has been looking into the effects of whiplash. And whiplash actually does have similar symptoms, in some cases, to concussion. But whiplash only requires a far lower amount of force to get than a concussion does. So sometimes what we think might be a concussion might also be whiplash, it can be kind of hard to detach the two. But for anyone who's interested, looking into whiplash is interesting, too. You should talk to Rachel at some point, she's pretty cool.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay. So do you do any neck exercises to strengthen your neck to prevent concussion?

 

Jane Strange 

Actually, yeah, because I was in a really terrible car accident back in 2017. And that's where I got my mega concussion that took me out of work for a really long time, couldn't fence for a long time, and I had to do a lot of physiotherapy. So I got a lot of neck strengthening exercises and stuff from that. And I still do them because I'm a little bit paranoid.

 

Guy Windsor 

Well, you should. Could you describe some of those neck strengthening exercises?

 

Jane Strange 

Yeah, so the big thing about the neck exercises is you’ve got big muscles in your neck, those ones are easy to train, you've also got the really deep ones. And those really deep flexors and extensors are the ones that you really want to be getting at and they can be really difficult to train. So if you're laying on your back, trying to keep your the back of your head where it is and keep your pressure against the pillow and then like tucking your chin in, but it's more of like the chicken bobbing the head, but like do that backwards with your chin tucking down. I'm not sure if that's a good explanation, but that specifically was one that I had to do a lot of reps of, for my concussion recovery. And then just like from there, raising up your head just a little bit, but that helps a lot of the flexors that are deep in your neck.

 

Guy Windsor 

Yeah, one that I was taught a long time ago involved, it's easier to do this with another person. So basically, you lie on your back on the floor, mat or whatever. And they take your head a half inch off the ground and you tuck your chin slightly and then they withdraw their support and you just maintain that position. What that does is the big muscles that you'd normally move your head with haven't been engaged because they've picked your head up for you. And so it preferentially engages the muscles right up against the vertebra.

 

Jane Strange 

That’s really interesting. That's a good one I hadn't done before.

 

Guy Windsor 

I wasn't expecting to actually be able to help in any way. I remember when I was doing a little bit of research on American football concussion stuff, I came across a company that has produced a sort of a helmet type thing that you put on, and it has this sort of gyro scopey thing on it. And what it does is it makes it difficult for you to keep your head still. And so basically what you're doing is it's a bit like a balance ball for your head.

 

Jane Strange 

You're constantly using the stabilizing muscles. Interesting.

 

Guy Windsor 

It’s forcing you to actually really work the neck. I've been thinking about getting one and wondering whether I can justify it as a research expense. They’re really expensive.

 

Jane Strange 

When we get when we get off I'm definitely doing a deep dive into like the literature on that to see what I can find.

 

Guy Windsor 

Now, I've never been concussed, at least not to my knowledge. You have been concussed really badly in a car accident, and also at Minsk. Kind of unfortunate to get two concussions that close together. So you have some experience of recovery. So if a person suspects that they are concussed or know they have been concussed, what should they do?

 

Jane Strange 

It's essentially what's called a return to work or a return to play program. There's a few big things. So first of all, a lot of times people get concussions, they don't realise it. Sometimes you get a particularly bad hit to the head and like you feel like your bell was rung. I think we've all had those ones. That all by itself could be enough to give you a concussion, like if you have that extra little feeling, like ooh, that was a rough one. Sometimes to like, you'll go home and you have a bit of a headache, or you'll go home and you just like don't feel quite right. Sometimes, even though we don't clock that is a concussion, that can also be a concussion. But in terms of recovery, if you think you have a concussion, or if you know that you have a concussion, the first thing you're going to want to do is give your brain a rest. So don't look at screens, don't be somewhere with super bright light, don't be somewhere where it's really loud. Just let your brain kind of like chill for a little while. And then from there, if you're feeling good, what you want to do is this program with steps. So step one would typically be like you start really small, you do like five to 15 minutes at a time of cognitive tasks. So whether it's reading, whether it's looking at your phone, maybe a chill video game, something like that, if you can do that for like 15 to 30 minutes and not have any symptoms, you're good to move on to the next one. And symptoms can be kind of tricky as well, because there's a lot that people don't often think of. But I can also send you my slide deck that I use for my concussion and then post that up as well. I'll put it in the show notes. Anyway, so if you can do these cognitive tasks pretty well, let's say you get up to 30 minutes with no symptoms, you're pretty much good to move on to the next one. If you do get any symptoms within the next 24 hours, you're staying at that same step though, you don't advance to the next step until you can do at least a full day symptom free after doing that. So then the second step would be maybe you try some light aerobic activity. And when I say light, I mean super light, like go for a super chill walk. And once you can go for a walk outdoors for let's say, again, like 30 minutes and have no symptoms for 24 hours after that, you can start the next phase. Having been through these steps, they're very challenging, because there's a lot of back and forth. Some days you'll make it really far and other days, it's a shitty day and you have to bump yourself back down to the step before, so in no way is it a linear process.

 

Guy Windsor 

So expect to interval it. Bit of a slip back, bit of a recovery.

 

Jane Strange 

You have to be really honest with yourself because if you start pushing through concussion symptoms, you're just going to end up injured for longer. Yeah, but it's really challenging because your brain is the thing that's injured, but your brain is the thing that's trying to heal your brain and do the right thing. So there's a conflict of interest going on and it can be very challenging to manage. But once you get past that light aerobic exercise kind of thing, that's when you can start doing sports specific activity. Again, this would be like fully no contact, fairly low key. Once you can get past that 30 minute mark, no symptoms, doing well. That's when you can get back into kind of more like on field practice is what they like to call it. So in HEMA, this would be like light drilling. Like you can make contact with swords, but no contact with your head and no contact with your body quite so much. But you can start doing a little bit more light contact-based exercises. From there again, if we don't have symptoms, we're moving on to body contact to see how that goes. That one would be when you start getting into contact drills, again, you should be getting cleared by a physician or by a health care professional, whoever's treating your concussion, because you don't really want to go back to full contact before your brain is actually ready for it. And then again, assuming that all goes well, you're pretty much cleared for whatever you want to do. Again, you can get back into sparring, you can get back into competition, all that kind of thing. For me it took me literally nine months after my concussion to get through all of those steps.

 

Guy Windsor 

Is that after the car crash? Or after Minsk?

 

Jane Strange 

For Minsk wasn't out for very long. It was maybe a week or two that I was just a little bit iffy. But I ended up with post concussive syndrome also after my car accident. So I was messed up for quite some time.

 

Guy Windsor 

And again, for the sake of the layperson, what is post concussive syndrome?

 

Jane Strange 

So post concussive syndrome is when your concussions and symptoms last for longer than, I think two weeks is the benchmark, but it might be a little bit longer. Women tend to get it more than men do, the reasons why are not as clear. But yeah, so if you end up with a concussion, where you're really finding symptoms last a long time, that's when you're kind of moving outside of just acute concussion into post concussive syndrome.

 

Guy Windsor 

Yeah, these things can last a really long time. I know of one person who took about four or five years to recover.

 

Jane Strange 

Even when you've recovered well enough that you're not really getting symptoms from day to day activities, and you're not really getting stuff like, I'd say that I made like a 95% recovery, but I still have some cognitive challenges, like my memory is definitely not what it used to be. Sometimes I can feel my brain just like chugging over something that it didn't used to have to chug for.

 

Guy Windsor 

Do you think there's there any supplements or medication or anything that could help?

 

Jane Strange 

I haven't had any recommended to me by any physicians or physiotherapists. Again, I'm not a doctor. So I don't want to give medical advice.

 

Guy Windsor 

Of course not.

 

Jane Strange 

For everyone's benefit, I'm just making that. I don't know that there's a lot currently on the market for it, I would have to do a little bit more research, but there's never been anything recommended to me or that I've discussed with other people that has been prescribed for example.

 

Guy Windsor 

And I'm guessing you should probably avoid things like alcohol.

 

Jane Strange 

I mean, I don't really drink to begin with, but if you're concussed, yeah, don't give your brain a harder time than it needs. That seems self evident.

 

Guy Windsor 

Honestly, not, because for a lot of people, if they're feeling a bit crap, or whatever. I've literally been handed four fingers of whiskey in a class by a doctor, because I said I had a cold.

 

Jane Strange 

What a doctor, that's a move.

 

Guy Windsor 

It wasn't in his office. And he wasn't my doctor. It was at his house at a social event. But he was a doctor. And he was like, oh, you’re feeling rough? This'll help. And it did. I felt much better afterwards.

 

Jane Strange 

Presumably, in the short term. Because you’re drunk, you don't care.

 

Guy Windsor 

Yes, definitely not standard medical advice.

 

Jane Strange 

No. And I do know that they do not recommend drinking alcohol if you do have concussion or symptoms of a concussion. I’d avoid that one if you're concerned.

 

Guy Windsor 

Alright, so I have a couple of questions I ask most of my guests towards the end. The best idea you haven't acted on yet, I think we've already decided that that's like medical school. You're busy with stuff on that. And so this is skipped to the last one, which is somebody gives you a million dollars to spend improving historical martial arts worldwide, how would you spend the money?

 

Jane Strange 

Okay, so, for the sake of this question, I'm not practically interested in things like formalisation or standardisation of HEMA. Federations might be cool, they could be valuable, but that's not really how I would want to spend a million dollars. It's also very rife with disagreement. So I'm not into that. The two things that I would spend an awful lot of money on, the first one would be accessibility. So I want way better sizing for gear for everyone. There's a lot of people that still need to mod gear. I'm a pretty standard size human. I fit a lot of the regular gear but for a long time I had gloves that were two sizes too big for me. There's still gear that doesn't really fit me as well. Women, especially, that are a lot smaller than me, they still have to mod basically everything they get. So sizing for girls would be huge, a lot of money for that.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, how does a bunch of money help you with that particular problem? Are you going to subsidize manufacturers to make smaller stuff? Or are you going to subsidize people to get stuff custom made? How would you do it?

 

Jane Strange 

Both. I have a million dollars? I'm throwing money wherever I can.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, because there are all sorts of incentive problems.

 

Jane Strange 

Yes, well, that's the thing. I think we have a bit of a chicken and egg problem where manufacturers make gear for standard size people. So mostly standard size people do it. And so then standard size people buy their gear, so they just make more of that. I think offering more diverse size ranges for gear will help us bring more diverse people into the sport, which I think is very meaningful. So definitely starting with the manufacturers, I think is helpful. But also helping people afford to buy gear. It's not cheap to get a full tournament ready longsword kit by any means. So helping people with that, especially people who have to spend more money because nothing comes in their size by default. I think that would go a long way. And that kind of goes into my next point, which is a lot of tournaments, even really big tournaments that have a lot of different categories, they still don't offer women's or underrepresented gender events.

 

Guy Windsor 

Sure, or even weight classes.

 

Jane Strange 

Or even weight classes. If we build those things, people will come. But we need to build them. So offering money to events to gear manufacturers, I'm all for all of that. But I also would use money to grant scholarships, for example, from whether it's a club or a tournament organiser, like my goal when I was running VHF was to get to a point financially for the club, where I could send at least one student per year to an event that they wouldn't otherwise be able to go to because of finances. I think scholarshipping people to go to other places, whether it's a tournament, whether it's just another club for an exchange, or a workshop or something like that, making it more accessible for people to go to I think would be huge. And I think tournaments that have a little bit of extra money in the bank should do the same thing. They should scholarship a couple of people to come.

 

Guy Windsor 

A lot of them do.

 

Jane Strange 

Yeah, there's more and more that are doing it now. And it's really nice to see. But I think that it's something that could definitely be marketed more.

 

Guy Windsor 

And also could be more standard.

 

Jane Strange 

I would love that to be a standard.

 

Guy Windsor 

In fact, one thing I've seen some clubs, some events do is they have this is the base price. This is if you're feeling rich, and you want to support the event, so that we can offer some free places: here is a higher price. And here are some very low priced or free entrances. And surprisingly many people will go for the higher price one to support other people so they can come.

 

Jane Strange 

Yeah, there's a lot of people that want to grow the community and want more people involved. And if that means paying a little bit more out of pocket, I've done that before, and I know that other people I know have too. I think because HEMA is so grassroots, and because for the most part, people genuinely care about each other and the sport. I think that we could capitalise on that even more to open up our doors a little bit be more accessible, whether it's to minorities, whether it's to more women, whether it's just to people who don't have the financial means because HEMA’s fucking expensive.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, I can tell you how I afford it. The way I afforded my training is I got other people to pay for it. By being an instructor.

 

Jane Strange 

Yeah. Whatever works.

 

Guy Windsor 

Literally, I wanted to get better. So my students pay me and I used that money to do things like go to events and hire foreign instructors in so I could train for them. Basically, my student body has been my grant giving organisation, for research, training, everything else. Because it is ridiculously expensive.

 

Jane Strange 

It’s so expensive. And at a club level, just having a club that has loaner gear in a variety of sizes instead of a men's medium and a men's large. Yeah, nobody's going to stick around if there's not any gear that they can even try the sport out in.

 

Guy Windsor 

I mean, my whole martial arts approach is a bit different. I don't really care about the tournament scene. What I'm doing is not really usually training people for tournaments. I can do that, but it’s not my focus. But what that means is all people need for my basic classes is a sword and a mask, which are a lot easier to size.

 

Jane Strange 

And the barrier to entry is so much lower.

 

Guy Windsor 

As soon as I got my permanent salle, which was a few months after I moved to Finland in 2001, I instituted a rule where you could leave your gear at the salle, absolutely fine. But if it was dusty, or rusty, then it got a bit of tape put on it, and it got put on the beginner's rack and anybody could borrow it.

 

Jane Strange 

That's a good way to do it.

 

Guy Windsor 

Yeah. Which meant that I didn't have to find 1000s and 1000s of euros to buy equipment for the beginners. Because within about a year, we could equip a beginners’ class of 20 people with a steel longsword and a fencing mask. Just off stuff that people had left, they're gone dusty and rusty. And when people came back, and they saw their gear on the beginner's rack, of course, they could take it off, clean the dust off, and then it's clean again. This was understood and explicitly told to everyone. So leave your gear here, that's what you're signing up to.

 

Jane Strange 

Terms of Use. And that's why it's definitely less financially fraught, to get into HEMA if you're not really looking at getting full kit for tournaments, but for those who are, I think there's been a nice shift towards boffers for beginners, which I think is great, because all you need to safely spar with a foam sword is again, a mask and some chill gloves.

 

Guy Windsor 

Honestly, with boffers, I don't think you even need that.

 

Jane Strange 

But if you if you want it to be extra safe, or if you you have insurance that like requires at least some level of PPE. We're on this side of the Atlantic. So insurance is important.

 

Guy Windsor 

Here's another massive, useless bit of advice. Start your club in Finland, because in Finland you don’t need insurance.

 

Jane Strange 

Do you know how many people from Finland have begged me to move to Finland? And then when I told them I was going to the university, they're like, there's a great university in Helsinki just come to Finland. Guys I’m not just moving to Finland.

 

Guy Windsor 

Why not? It's great. And then you don't need to pay for insurance. Literally I ran my school there for like 15 years. And I never once had to pay a dime in insurance.

 

Jane Strange 

If I ever take on HEMA teaching full time, I’ll keep that in my back pocket and move to Finland, start a club there.

 

Guy Windsor 

There's a great games industry in Finland. So there's jobs for your husband too.

 

Jane Strange 

The problem with my husband with Finland, because we've talked about this, is he's from Arizona, and I'm from Canada. So obviously, temperature-wise, very different comfort levels, I'd be very happy in Scandinavia, he would probably rather kill himself than live there. He did not enjoy the winter in Edmonton this year, we got minus 40. Not a fan.

 

Guy Windsor 

Minus 40 is pretty severe. So yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, so getting back to the million dollars of money I don't have to give you. So you’d spend a bunch of it on accessibility through equipment and scholarships, sponsoring events to put on women's tournaments. But, if I'm remembering that far back, and I've never had a concussion. But my memory is a little bit off today. That wasn't the only thing you were going to spend money on.

 

Jane Strange 

No, there was one other thing. I would dump a lot of money into formalised judge training. I don't actually care if there's a single formalised rule set in HEMA. I think it's more fun if there isn't one. But a good judge is a good judge, regardless of the ruleset. And so developing and compensating competent judges, I think would be huge for the tournament scene in HEMA, so I would put a significant amount of money into developing programs for that.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, interesting. Now, when I was taught sport fencing back in the 1980s, we used to set up fencing matches or whatever. And we didn't always electrify and if we didn't electrify we had four judges and the president, they call it a director now. And the two judges behind each fencer, of course, it's on a strip so it's easier to keep everything straight. And basically what that meant was, we were trained from the first week to watch fencing and call hits.

 

Jane Strange 

Yes, so in my club, we do that from the very beginning. You're judging fencing, you're being the director on the side. I think more clubs should be doing that. And I definitely think from the club level, there's a lot more that could be done, but on a larger level like a tournament, for example, or a league or a region that's putting on events they could do more. Because the thing is between clubs, everyone's got a little bit of variability as to like, what's a quality hit, what counts, what doesn't, when do we stop, when do we not stop. So there's also the problem of like, getting everybody in a given region on the same page. And there are regions that have done this quite well. But putting a little bit more resources into making it easy for people to get together and making it easy for people to get on the same page and know what they're going for. And then paying your directors at events, because they're working harder than literally anybody else there.

 

Guy Windsor 

I've had my fair share of running tournament pools and things like that, for decades now. And it is much harder than being a fencer. All you have to do as a fencer is just show up and fence.

 

Jane Strange 

You can show up and then you can yell at the judge if you want to yell at the judge. The judge has a lot more to do.

 

Guy Windsor 

Oh, it'd be a big mistake to yell at the judge when I'm directing.

 

Jane Strange 

I tell ya man, I love carding people. I'm like, give me a reason. Give me a reason I'm throwing a card at you.

 

Guy Windsor 

Let me tell you a story. I was directing at this event in the States, I won't give too many details, I don't want to make it too easy to identify the particular fencer involved, because that's a bit of a dick move. Okay, there's this fencer, and the rule is when your bout is called, and you're not there, you get called again, and then you have 10 seconds to get to the line. And if you don't have that, then you're out. Okay, so I call the next bout, and this fencer is he sort of sitting off to the side, he's obviously not really paying attention to things. And so I call it, I start doing the countdown. 10 seconds, and I slow it down a bit. And he gets up. And he starts strolling towards the line, he doesn't scurry, he strolls. So I just carried on the countdown, and he doesn't get there in time. And so he forfeits and he's furious, like, absolutely furious.

 

Jane Strange 

What else could you possibly be doing right now?

 

Guy Windsor 

And the thing is, if he'd been like in the bathroom, sees the situation, and comes running over I’d have slowed the countdown.

 

Jane Strange 

Of course. You can be reasonable.

 

Guy Windsor 

But he's literally strolling. His next fight, he's there on time. He's forfeited that fight. His next fight, he's there on time. And he's standing at the line. I say, “Fencers ready?” He says, “No.” I say, “What's wrong?” He says, “You say I have 10 seconds.” I said, “Forfeit.”

 

Jane Strange 

Gone. Instantly gone. Out of my ring.

 

Guy Windsor 

Exactly. Gone. Get out. And he's absolutely incensed. And he goes on, he storms over and he complains to the organisers. And the organisers come and have a word with my line judges. And then one of them comes over to me and says that this complaint has been made. And their conclusion was the first forfeit was a judgment call, could have gone either way. The second forfeit? Absolutely no other reasonable decision. I have a reputation in that area, I will get through two entire pools while most directors get through one.

 

Jane Strange 

No same. So before a pool, I pull in all my fencers. And I'm like, “Look, if you're not ready, mask on, sword in hand, the second to the match ahead of you ends, you're getting a card.” If you need to take time to put on your mask and put on your gloves. That is too much time, I need you to be ready immediately.” And most of the time you set that expectation people are fine. But sometimes I'm like, oh, man, I can see you're not ready. So most of the tournaments that I direct at typically, there's a penalty for not being ready on time. So if they're like delaying or whatever, they get a minus one going into the match. And then if it's egregious, or if they're taking a really long time, they can be ejected, but typically they just end up stacking up these like minus ones to start their matches. And I'm like, this is your fault. You're purposely starting yourself as a disadvantage. And for me, when I'm fencing, I know when I'm fencing, I know who's fencing before me, I'm ready when they're done, because what else am I there for?

 

Guy Windsor 

For me it’s a politeness thing.

 

Jane Strange 

Everybody's time matters.

 

Guy Windsor 

I also tell my fences that as the director of the pool, they must expect me to be blind, drunk and biased against them. So they have to absolutely sell me every hit.

 

Jane Strange 

Yeah, make it very obvious for me.

 

Guy Windsor 

Make my life easy. If I have any doubt, I'll just throw it out. I'm not going to stand there and analyse what may or may not have happened.

 

Jane Strange 

If it takes me more than like, a couple of seconds to make a call, it was too messy. I'm washing the exchange and you can do it again.

 

Guy Windsor 

Precisely, yes. Because it makes better fencers.

 

Jane Strange 

That’s the thing. If they can't show me what they're doing and doing it on purpose, then it obviously wasn't that good to begin with.

 

Guy Windsor 

So I think you should probably be the director of the of this school of judges because I think you and I are of similar mind when it comes to running these things.

 

Jane Strange 

A lot of people judge because they have to, I love directing specifically. I love running a ring. I really like keeping people safe. I like giving points when there's good points. I love it. When someone tests me and I get to give them a card. I'm like, just do it like I'm willing and able. I started running intramural tournaments at Edmonton historical martial arts for the region. I literally went out and bought myself a red card and a yellow card to keep in my back pocket so I can pull it out. Oh, nothing feels better.

 

Guy Windsor 

Okay, there's one thing that does feel better. If the ruleset allows for technical points, or like, something was done really well. And they can get maybe like a check mark or something. And if at the end of the day the score is tied, the person with the most technical points wins. The way I indicate the technical point to the table, the scorekeepers at the table, is I do a happy dance. I point at the fencer who's just made me happy and I do a little happy dance. Because it's their job to make me happy.

 

Jane Strange 

Yeah, well, I really like being expressive as a director too, I'm not showing favourite to either fencer, but I like making sure that everyone's having fun, and I'm having fun. So I'll often be a little bit silly in the ring, as long as everything's going safely and well. But if anyone has any questions about concussions or wants me to come and talk at their club, I'm happy to have a chat, feel free to reach out to me and I'm sure Guy will post my contact info with the podcast. I'm always happy to chat if anybody else wants to get in touch.

 

Guy Windsor 

Excellent. All right. Well, I thank you so much for joining me today, Jane, it has been lovely to meet you.

 

Jane Strange 

It was such a pleasure chatting with you.